Red Bull RB8 Renault

[mx_tifoso]

I hope it's a possability that they're telling the truth in that they haven't used it but could, because it's interesting to see these developments that even though are against the spirit of the rules, provide an advantage and are better than more winglets here and there.

And thanks for the pic Gato Azul.

[red300zx99]

Something doesn't quite fit in all this story.
If they have something that can be adjusted by hand when nobody is looking, presumably in a matter of seconds, why would they actually want to use it in Park Ferme? Wouldn't it make more sense to use it in the pit lane in those 30 minutes before the race starts?

You'd do it at the earliest possible moment where you didn't think you'd get caught. Waiting just increases the chance that you won't be able to do it all. Try thinking like a cheater

[Ral]

..... maybe RBR are telling the truth? That's always a possability.

It's also irrelevant. The rule doesn't say "don't do it by hand", it says "it shouldn't be possible to do it by hand". It seems to be one of very few rules that does not require interpreting and in fact leaves no space for any interpretation at all. The rule was broken and if it is a knob or a button, than it was designed in and broken on purpose.

Which still leaves me confused as to why all they did was ask them (very quietly) to change it. I get why they might want to keep it quiet, but they still should have handed out a punishment of some sort.

[myurr]

or on the gird when there's people all over the place and tyres and distractions..... maybe RBR are telling the truth? That's always a possability.

Parc ferme doesn't end until the start of the race itself (possibly the start of the formation lap), so you cannot make any changes to the car until that time. I believe there are exceptions where you can elect to change the setup but you must start from the pit lane.

The problem with believing Red Bull is that they went to all the time and trouble of designing components that can only be used to circumvent the rules. Sure there are conceivable circumstances where they could be used elsewhere, such as in pit stops, but these aren't practical circumstances that ever come up in racing. Any time when you are likely to want to be able to make an adjustment, and are legally allowed to do so, then the time saved by being able to do so by hand instead of using a simple tool is going to be irrelevant.

[myurr]

(very quietly) to change it. I get why they might want to keep it quiet, but they still should have handed out a punishment of some sort.

Brand and image. How would it look if the world championship winning team from the last couple of years, who already have a reputation for sailing close to the wind, are then punished for cheating this year. It devalues the championships from the last couple of years and severely tarnishes the perception of F1 around the world.

Instead cheats are allowed to prosper, unless you're McLaren or Renault during a time when the head of the FIA has a personal vendetta against the team principals. Then you're severely punished.

As far as I'm concerned having one story about you cheating or breaking the rules is unfortunate, two looks careless, they're up to four this year alone which starts to look more like fact than rumour. No wonder the other teams are dissatisfied with the way the FIA are enforcing their rules and the way in which Red Bull seem to just get a quiet telling off and are asked nicely not to do it again, if they would be so kind.

[Shakeman]

No wonder the other teams are dissatisfied with the way the FIA are enforcing their rules and the way in which Red Bull seem to just get a quiet telling off and are asked nicely not to do it again, if they would be so kind.

I'm rather becoming disinterested in the racing because of such activities. This forum is about the only thing that keeps me interested in F1 now it's a sport that can only be afforded by those on Tax Credits.

The technology and engineering are fantastic but the spectacle is marred by too many inconsistencies in stewarding leading to impressions of favouritism.

[marcush.]

Red bull is a smelly fish these days.They are very poor losers and they are stretching the rules in a way not fitting to how the sport is run todays.
The sporting regs are sanitised in a way that hard racing seems all but impossible at times and technically this team does bend the rules at will for years now.
Unfortunatelly for them they have won two championships in a row now and this is where the politeness stops with Bernie and the FIA methinks .So now they have to play to the same set of rules and find it hard to adapt.

[hardingfv32]

... It seems to be one of very few rules that does not require interpreting and in fact leaves no space for any interpretation at all...Which still leaves me confused as to why all they did was ask them (very quietly) to change it. I get why they might want to keep it quiet, but they still should have handed out a punishment of some sort.

This rule is completely open to interpretation. That is why there was no penalty.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

Red bull is a smelly fish these days.

I smell success, ingenuity, creativity.... nothing remotely negative.

Brian

[Ral]

... It seems to be one of very few rules that does not require interpreting and in fact leaves no space for any interpretation at all...Which still leaves me confused as to why all they did was ask them (very quietly) to change it. I get why they might want to keep it quiet, but they still should have handed out a punishment of some sort.

This rule is completely open to interpretation. That is why there was no penalty.

Brian

I am genuinely interested.

Article 34.5 of the Sporting Regulations
In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in post qualifying parc ferme, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools.

How would you read that such that it would not make the possibility for manual adjustment illegal?

From what I've read, the reason the inspector in Canada didn't press the matter, is that he wasn't sure if it was or wasn't possible to make manual adjustments. That I can see. But Horner has subsequently publicly confirmed that it was.

[lukea6]

Could it be argued that you need tools to access the component? If you do that is!

[CHT]

Are teams allowed to tweak the car when they are on the grid?
If yes, I presume RBR could easily do it on the grid without breaking any rules.

[Pierce89]

Are teams allowed to tweak the car when they are on the grid?

Nope

[raymondu999]

They are after the start though afaik. Or am I mistaken?

[bhall]

I see little room for creative interpretation in the context of what's applicable to this scenario. Take note of both the last paragraph of 34.1 and 34.5.

Code: Select all

34) POST QUALIFYING PARC FERMÉ

34.1 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.

Between these times, other than when cars are returned to the parc fermé overnight, the following work may be carried out:

a) Engines may be started.

b) Fuel may be added or removed and a fuel breather fitted.

c) Wheels, wheel fasteners and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre pressures checked.

d) Spark plugs may be removed in order to carry out an internal engine inspection and cylinder compression checks.

e) Permitted heating or cooling devices may be fitted.

f) A jump battery may be connected and on board electrical units may be freely accessed via a physical connection to the car.

g) Charging and / or discharging of the KERS energy storage devices.

h) Removal of the KERS energy storage devices which, once marked by the FIA technical delegate, may be retained overnight by the team.

i) The main electrical battery and radio batteries may be changed.

j) The brake system may be bled.

k) Engine oil may be drained.

l) Compressed gases may be drained or added.

m) Fluids with a specific gravity less than 1.1 may be drained and/or replenished, however, fluids used for replenishment must conform to the same specification as the original fluid.

n) The aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced.

o) If the FIA technical delegate is satisfied that changes in climatic conditions necessitate alterations to the specification of a car, changes may be made to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts. These changes may be made at any time after the message “CHANGE IN CLIMATIC CONDITIONS” is shown on the timing monitors, from this point the choice of air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts is free and pitot tubes may be covered or uncovered, subject always to compliance with the relevant Technical Regulations.

p) Bodywork (excluding radiators) may be removed and/or cleaned

q) Cosmetic changes may be made to the bodywork and tape may be added.

r) Any part of the car may be cleaned.

s) On board cameras, marshalling system components, timing transponders and any associated equipment may be removed, refitted or checked.

t) Any work required by the FIA technical delegate.

u) Changes to improve the driver's comfort. In this contextanything other than the adjustment of mirrors, seat belts and pedals may only be carried out with the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate.

The addition or removal of padding (or similar material) is also permitted but may only be carried out under supervision and, if required by the FIA technical delegate, must be removed before the post‐race weighing procedure.

v) Drinking fluid for the driver may be added at any time, however, the capacity of the container for any such fluid must not exceed 1.5 litres.

w) Repair of genuine accident damage.

x) Any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.

Furthermore, any parts removed from the car in order to carry out any such work must be refitted before the car leaves the pit lane.

Any work not listed above may only be undertaken with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a team wishes to fit is similar in mass, inertia and function to the original. Any parts removed will be retained by the FIA.

However, if a team wishes to change a part during the qualifying session and/or on the grid before the start of the race, this may be done without first seeking the permission of the technical delegate, provided it is reasonable for the relevant team to believe permission would be given if there was time to ask and the broken or damaged part remains in full view of the scrutineer assigned to the car at all times.

In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in post‐qualifying parc fermé, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools.

34.2 At the end of the qualifying practice at least six cars will be chosen at random to undergo further checks, once informed their car has been selected the team concerned must take the car to the parc fermé immediately.

34.3 Within three and a half hours of the end of the qualifying practice session all cars used during the session (or which were intended for use but failed to leave the pit lane) must be covered and ready for FIA seals to be applied in order to ensure that they remain secure until the following day. For marketing purposes this deadline may be extended for one car from each competitor for a maximum of two hours by prior arrangement with the FIA technical delegate. However, no work of any kind may be carried out on the car any later than three and a half hours after the end of the qualifying practice session.

Whilst cars are covered overnight they may be fitted with devices to keep them warm.

34.4 Five hours before the start of the formation lap the seals and covers may be removed but the cars will remain under parc fermé conditions until the start of the race.

34.5 If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set‐up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2.

34.6 One scrutineer will be allocated to each car for the purpose of ensuring that no unauthorised work is carried out whilst cars are being held under parc fermé conditions.

34.7 A list of parts replaced with the specific agreement of the FIA technical delegate whilst cars are being held