Jackie Stewart F1 legends question (aka is F1 too safe)

[Carlos]

These are the drivers killed during my time watching the sport:

John Taylor (UK)[C]

August 7, 1966

1966 German Grand Prix

Nürburgring

Brabham

Race

[19]



Lorenzo Bandini (ITA)[D]

May 7, 1967

1967 Monaco Grand Prix

Circuit de Monaco

Ferrari

Race

[20]



Bob Anderson (UK)

August 14, 1967

Test

Silverstone

Brabham

Test

[21]



Jo Schlesser (FRA)

July 7, 1968

1968 French Grand Prix

Rouen-Les-Essarts

Honda

Race

[22]



Gerhard Mitter (GER)

August 2, 1969

1969 German Grand Prix

Nürburgring

BMW

Practice

[10]



Martin Brain (UK)

May 25, 1970

Nottingham Sports Car Club meeting

Silverstone

Cooper

Race

[23][24]



Piers Courage (UK)

June 7, 1970

1970 Dutch Grand Prix

Circuit Park Zandvoort

De Tomaso

Race

[25]



Jochen Rindt (AUT)

September 5, 1970

1970 Italian Grand Prix

Autodromo Nazionale Monza

Lotus

Qualifying

[8]



Jo Siffert (SUI)

October 24, 1971

1971 World Championship Victory Race

Brands Hatch

BRM

Race

[26]



Roger Williamson (UK)

July 29, 1973

1973 Dutch Grand Prix

Circuit Park Zandvoort

March

Race

[10]



François Cevert (FRA)

October 6, 1973

1973 United States Grand Prix

Watkins Glen International

Tyrrell

Qualifying

[27]



Peter Revson (USA)

March 30, 1974

1974 South African Grand Prix

Kyalami

Shadow

Pre-race test

[28]



Helmuth Koinigg (AUT)

October 6, 1974

1974 United States Grand Prix

Watkins Glen International

Surtees

Race

[29]



Mark Donohue (USA)

August 19, 1975

1975 Austrian Grand Prix

Österreichring

Penske

Practice

[10]



Tom Pryce (UK)[E]

March 5, 1977

1977 South African Grand Prix

Kyalami

Shadow

Race

[30]



Brian McGuire (AUS)

August 29, 1977

1977 Shellsport Championship Round 11

Brands Hatch

Williams

Practice

[31]



Ronnie Peterson (SWE)[F]

September 10, 1978

1978 Italian Grand Prix

Autodromo Nazionale Monza

Lotus

Race

[32]



Patrick Depailler (FRA)

August 1, 1980

Test

Hockenheimring

Alfa Romeo

Test

[33]



Gilles Villeneuve (CAN)

May 8, 1982

1982 Belgian Grand Prix

Circuit Zolder

Ferrari

Qualifying

[34]



Riccardo Paletti (ITA)

June 13, 1982

1982 Canadian Grand Prix

Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

Osella

Race

[10]



Elio de Angelis (ITA)

May 15, 1986

Test

Circuit Paul Ricard

Brabham

Test

[35]



Roland Ratzenberger (AUT)

April 30, 1994

1994 San Marino Grand Prix

Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari

Simtek

Qualifying

[36]



Ayrton Senna (BRA)

May 1, 1994

1994 San Marino Grand Prix

Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari

Williams

Race

I stopped watching for a few seasons after Jochen Rindt perished, same when Ayrton Senna died.
Today the sport is safer and I don't miss the spectacle of the '65>'94 years

[SeijaKessen]

I've got a question Carlos.

Given how many fatalities occur on public roads every single year, does that stop you from driving?

[timbo]

I've got a question Carlos.

Given how many fatalities occur on public roads every single year, does that stop you from driving?

Much less percentage otherwise car transport would be banned altogether.
Having seen so many drivers die, whose careers you followed, is almost like having as much of your relatives die.

[SeijaKessen]

I've got a question Carlos.

Given how many fatalities occur on public roads every single year, does that stop you from driving?

Much less percentage otherwise car transport would be banned altogether.
Having seen so many drivers die, whose careers you followed, is almost like having as much of your relatives die.

33,808 people were killed in fatal crashes in 2009 in the USA.

F1 driver death's during race weekends since 1980?

A whopping 4 in thirty years.

[timbo]

33,808 people were killed in fatal crashes in 2009 in the USA.

F1 driver death's during race weekends since 1980?

A whopping 4 in thirty years.

And I thought we were talking about 60's and 70's.

[SeijaKessen]

33,808 people were killed in fatal crashes in 2009 in the USA.

F1 driver death's during race weekends since 1980?

A whopping 4 in thirty years.

And I thought we were talking about 60's and 70's.

Listen, we could go 60 years if it makes you feel better.

Either way relative to how many people are killed during the course of a year in car accidents in the US, I'd say a few deaths here and there in F1 isn't so bad.

[timbo]

Listen, we could go 60 years if it makes you feel better.

Either way relative to how many people are killed during the course of a year in car accidents in the US, I'd say a few deaths here and there in F1 isn't so bad.

As we have discussed earlier about 5 to 10% of F1 drivers were killed in accidents during 60's and 70's. The number you quoted corresponds to 1,41% of total deaths, and that includes everything from speeding to DUI.

[SeijaKessen]

Listen, we could go 60 years if it makes you feel better.

Either way relative to how many people are killed during the course of a year in car accidents in the US, I'd say a few deaths here and there in F1 isn't so bad.

As we have discussed earlier about 5 to 10% of F1 drivers were killed in accidents during 60's and 70's. The number you quoted corresponds to 1,41% of total deaths, and that includes everything from speeding to DUI.

Point remains, a few deaths here and there aren't so bad.

Look at the NFL. There's an epidemic of early deaths due to head injuries.

Players know the risks, and choose to participate anyway.

Much like danger in racing...so long as the participants are aware of the risks, they can have at it.

The racing is quite fantastic when there is none of this ridiculous safety crap.

[timbo]

Point remains, a few deaths here and there aren't so bad.

It was more like a couple each year before safety measures were implemented.

Look at the NFL. There's an epidemic of early deaths due to head injuries.

Maybe we should look at war at Vietnam too?

Players know the risks, and choose to participate anyway.

There are quite a lot of studies which showed that people suck at risk judgment if it is not immediate.

The racing is quite fantastic when there is none of this ridiculous safety crap.

What crap exactly?

[RB7ate9]

Listen, we could go 60 years if it makes you feel better.

Either way relative to how many people are killed during the course of a year in car accidents in the US, I'd say a few deaths here and there in F1 isn't so bad.

As we have discussed earlier about 5 to 10% of F1 drivers were killed in accidents during 60's and 70's. The number you quoted corresponds to 1,41% of total deaths, and that includes everything from speeding to DUI.

Point remains, a few deaths here and there aren't so bad.

Look at the NFL. There's an epidemic of early deaths due to head injuries.

Players know the risks, and choose to participate anyway.

Much like danger in racing...so long as the participants are aware of the risks, they can have at it.

The racing is quite fantastic when there is none of this ridiculous safety crap.

Interesting that you would bring the NFL up, as it does have parallels to F1 in two ways: technology and regulation.

With the increased sophistication of the padding (from essentially leather sleeping caps to shock-absorbing helmets), much of the overall damage has been alleviated, with more work being done to reduce damage every day. However, there is a maximum to which the padding can be added before players simply can't move or perform as well (i.e. padding that restricts leg movement). The dangers are there, but that doesn't mean technology can't be allowed to mitigate some of it to a point, just like the requirements of the safety cells and fire extinguishers and HANS devices in F1.

Recently in the NFL, there has been a crackdown on head-to-head hits - resulting in massive penalties ( being pushed 15 yards most often). Some decry this as the "wussification" of football, but there are studies that link the trauma of concussions to debilitating and lingering effects. Recently, San Diego's own Junior Seau commited suicide with a gunshot to the chest, as he felt compelled not only to end his life for some reason, but it was linked to his head injuries (obviously, he saved his brain for medical study). However, often times in football the relatively benign tackles are treated with the same severity as an aggressive assault. It is the judgement between these two that deserve re-examination. Much like the balance between botched overtaking maneuvers that result in racing incidents versus purposefully dangerous actions, the stewardship oversees the line that drivers thread in how aggressive they attack. In the end, the "safeness" of F1 or the NFL has to do with the attitude of the people making those judgement calls and the people that spend the most money.

Overall, I would like to see the tracks match the technology of the cars today and the stewards be a little less stringent on racing and receive more input from the drivers themselves.

End long post.

[SeijaKessen]

Point remains, a few deaths here and there aren't so bad.

It was more like a couple each year before safety measures were implemented.

Look at the NFL. There's an epidemic of early deaths due to head injuries.

Maybe we should look at war at Vietnam too?

Players know the risks, and choose to participate anyway.

There are quite a lot of studies which showed that people suck at risk judgment if it is not immediate.

The racing is quite fantastic when there is none of this ridiculous safety crap.

What crap exactly?

timbo,

As I have always maintained, I have no interest in playing nanny to people.

If they want to do dangerous things, so long as it doesn't put anyone else at risk but themselves, have at it.

My only requirement is that they are made aware of any potential dangers beforehand.

What they do after that is their own choice.

We're all adults, and capable of making decisions...whether they are good or bad is another matter.

And Vietnam?

LOL

Try keeping it to sports which is why I brought up the NFL.

The NFL players know what the risks are...they choose to do it anyway.

Case closed.

[timbo]

Try keeping it to sports which is why I brought up the NFL.

There's more parallels between war and sports than you imagine.
Still, you haven't answered what exactly is the safety crap that spoils the sport.

[Just_a_fan]

As I have always maintained, I have no interest in playing nanny to people.

If they want to do dangerous things, so long as it doesn't put anyone else at risk but themselves, have at it.

My only requirement is that they are made aware of any potential dangers beforehand.

What they do after that is their own choice.

We're all adults, and capable of making decisions...whether they are good or bad is another matter.

[...]

Case closed.

You are, of course, aware that the improvements in safety have been driven by the drivers as much as anyone in the FIA? Hell, it was a driver who drove the early safety improvements in the first place. The drivers now regularly meet and discuss safety issues and we sometimes see track changes being made because of drivers' concerns.

The drivers aren't happy with the some of the risks, so they are reduced. They are aware of the risks beforehand and don't always accept them. That fits your only requirement and therefore, as you say, case closed.

Now, if you want people to risk their lives racing, why don't you go and find a low-safety series and try it for yourself? Or perhaps take up some other high risk, low cost sport if you can't afford to go motor racing. There are lots of cheap-to-do sports around where people get injured on a regular basis.

[Richard]

How about this. We leave everyone in the era they grew up in.

Indeed, appreciate the brilliant divers from each generation for being the most talented of their generation. Admire their raw talent and their drive and determination to apply themselves to motorsport as it existed in their era.

[timbo]

How about this. We leave everyone in the era they grew up in.

Indeed, appreciate the brilliant divers from each generation for being the most talented of their generation. Admire their raw talent and their drive and determination to apply themselves to motorsport as it existed in their era.

Agreed. So equally, there's no point saying that Rommie Peterson would be 2 seconds faster than Lewis Hamilton.