2012 Italian Grand Prix - Monza

[raymondu999]

The story never changed though. He has always said that he intentionally went on the grass - he could see that he couldn't fit the entire car there, but the other side was an overtaking dead end, and just braved it over the grass.

[radosav]

The story never changed though. He has always said that he intentionally went on the grass - he could see that he couldn't fit the entire car there, but the other side was an overtaking dead end, and just braved it over the grass.

true, but why did he say two days ago that if he didn't complain about alonso's move on him in 2011, why alonso complains on his move on alonso. i don't think that was alonso's decision or choice to go with 4 wheels on grass.
i only wan't to say that vettel's move on alonso was more dangerous.

[SeijaKessen]

Alonso never tried to force Di Resta off the track.

I rewatched it just now, Alonso never moved towards the outside the way Vettel did.

If alonso never forced DiResta off the track, how is Alonso closer than 1 car width to the edge of the track in the above screen grab?

You'd probably find that Di Resta is actually a little further back than you might think.

They were about even when they came out of the Variante del Rettifilo. The problem is they did not come into the frame right away when the camera changed from the overhead at the chicane to the entrance of the Curva Grande due to the slight bend that hides cars coming out of the Rettifilo. It looked like Alonso out accelerated Di Resta who probably did not want to give up position so easily but would have been better off doing so instead of wasting the time trying to make an impossible overtake.

Alonso is on the racing line. Everyone going into the Curva Grande on that lap was on that line.

[myurr]

That's still the same line that Vettel took, and Di Resta didn't just choose to drive on the grass for no reason. Alonso pulled the same stunt at Vettel in both last years race and this years.

The only real difference was the amount of room given, and here it seems that the difference between it being an okay move and being awarded a drive through penalty appears to be about 30cm.

There is also the Di Resta defence against Senna where they touch and Senna ends up being forced off track onto the grass and then down the escape road. Again this went unpunished, wasn't even investigated.

I'm not saying that Vettel didn't deserve a penalty, but there are some genuine and frustrating inconsistencies with the FIA approach to policing these rules. And as a fan of the sport that makes me grumpy.

[Redragon]

That's still the same line that Vettel took, and Di Resta didn't just choose to drive on the grass for no reason. Alonso pulled the same stunt at Vettel in both last years race and this years.

The only real difference was the amount of room given, and here it seems that the difference between it being an okay move and being awarded a drive through penalty appears to be about 30cm.

There is also the Di Resta defence against Senna where they touch and Senna ends up being forced off track onto the grass and then down the escape road. Again this went unpunished, wasn't even investigated.

I'm not saying that Vettel didn't deserve a penalty, but there are some genuine and frustrating inconsistencies with the FIA approach to policing these rules. And as a fan of the sport that makes me grumpy.

The difference on the three cases, it is the telemetry. Diresta-Senna and Diresta-alonso inccidents could be interpretated as racing inccidents because in both cases they are pushing to the max and try to defend positions.

On Vettel-Alonso inccident, Vettel made a mistake before the turn, he slow down for some reason, Alonso was forced to avoid him, and Vettel on his acelaration, coming back for his mistake and knowing that alonso was there, decided to push the limits and not to lose position, but he went to far. And that it is for me why they didn't investigate the other two because there were not intention, was part of racing. On Vettel there is intention and decision to push him out.

[Hail22]

[...]
On Topic: It was a good race, however its a shame Perez couldn't take the fight to Hamilton. It would of been beautiful!

[raymondu999]

Looking at the laptimes of both Ferraris in Monza, I thought it was quite interesting that the two Ferraris were quite weak towards the ends of stints. More clearly so on Massa - I guess Alonso was nursing his tyres more, but still, it was quite visible on Alonso's car in both stints, that towards the end the tyres were going away. Maybe the ambient heat, coupled with the traction demands (in low downforce trim) were taxing the Ferrari rears?

[Jackuar]

If not for the incident with Vettel which caused some damage to the car, would've Alonso been able to hold Perez? A broken rear damper, a hole in his floor, and a lost diffuser part - how much of performance/aero loss is that? If I assumed about 0.15 sec loss per lap, the incident happened at lap 26, Perez passed him at 47, so for about 20 laps -- an extra 3 to 4 sec gap, which should have been enough for him to take P2. Any thoughts?

Btw, how did the Perezs and Rosbergs manage a 1.27-ish lap when Lewis and Alonso for the most part did a 1.29 ?

Just looking for some insights....

[raymondu999]

Perez and Rosberg had softs at the end of the race when the track was quickest and the car lightest.

Also, if you look at how the long run pace & degradation of Felipe and Fernando compared before the incident, to the difference in pace after the incident, I'd reckon it was a tenth, maybe a tenth and a half loss in laptime for Fernando, tops.

[NathanOlder]

If not for the incident with Vettel which caused some damage to the car, would've Alonso been able to hold Perez? A broken rear damper, a hole in his floor, and a lost diffuser part - how much of performance/aero loss is that? If I assumed about 0.15 sec loss per lap, the incident happened at lap 26, Perez passed him at 47, so for about 20 laps -- an extra 3 to 4 sec gap, which should have been enough for him to take P2. Any thoughts?

Btw, how did the Perezs and Rosbergs manage a 1.27-ish lap when Lewis and Alonso for the most part did a 1.29 ?

Just looking for some insights....

Alonso wouldnt have been much faster if any, surely this was shown before his off track moment. Before he went off he was no faster than Massa and only sligghtly faster than Vettel. Once Alonso passed Massa, Massa was told over the radio to speed up, which he couldnt. Alonso was able to edge away from Massa.

So IMO there was nothing wrong with that Ferrari. We saw what happens if there is a slight problem in Qualifying. He was over a second a lap slower than Massa. During the race Alonso was no faster than Massa at the start with a pefrect car. And no slower than Massa at the end. which tells me, there was nothing wrong with Fernando's car. The Ferrari was just not fast enough.

[elFranZ]

[...]

Back on topic, I repeat, Hamilton was booed by few stupid people from a little and meaningless racist political movement. Don't generalize, it's not fair, there were tons of people, including me, applauding Lewis for what he did, an amazing race. That's all.

[lukeaar]

Back on topic, I repeat, Hamilton was booed by few stupid people from a little and meaningless racist political movement. Don't generalize, it's not fair, there were tons of people, including me, applauding Lewis for what he did, an amazing race. That's all.

Thanks for the clarification. I have to say it came over quite clearly in the Sky broadcast, leading a lot of us to believe that it was a majority booing.

[beelsebob]

Back on topic, I repeat, Hamilton was booed by few stupid people from a little and meaningless racist political movement. Don't generalize, it's not fair, there were tons of people, including me, applauding Lewis for what he did, an amazing race. That's all.

Thanks for the clarification. I have to say it came over quite clearly in the Sky broadcast, leading a lot of us to believe that it was a majority booing.

Agreed, I could certainly hear booing above anything else. It didn't at all sound like a minority to me.

Note also, both Brundle and Coulthard noted having being booed on that podium by the italian crowds for not being a Ferrari driver.

[Gerhard Berger]

Alonso wouldnt have been much faster if any, surely this was shown before his off track moment. Before he went off he was no faster than Massa and only sligghtly faster than Vettel.

Excluding the lap where Vettel forced Alonso off, Alonso was on average faster than Massa after they had both pitted, but before he passed Vettel. That was despite Alonso being bottled up behind Vettel.

So IMO there was nothing wrong with that Ferrari.

Pat Fry disagrees with you. He happened to actually see the Ferrari after the race and had a lot more data at hand regarding the situation.

We saw what happens if there is a slight problem in Qualifying. He was over a second a lap slower than Massa. During the race Alonso was no faster than Massa at the start with a pefrect car. And no slower than Massa at the end. which tells me, there was nothing wrong with Fernando's car. The Ferrari was just not fast enough.

He was no faster than Massa because of the traffic he had to pass. In clean air he was faster than Massa.

[NathanOlder]

So to disagree with mr Fry. If Alonso didnt run off the track, he clearly would have won, and lapped everyone up to 6th.

The Ferrari was nowhere near the pace of the Mclaren in the race, damaged or undamaged.