Comparing RB & Merc ....

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Nando
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote:Yea I'm sure Newey went to Red Bull to design Torro Rosso's.

They are/were a B team. Beating the A-team is an embarassment. No 2 ways about it.
But he´s not with Red Bull. He´s with Red Bull Technologies and his job was to design TWO cars that was designed to win races.
Both of them.

They were not a B-team because it was largely identical cars. just a different team.
And you can not forget the fact that Vettel in Monza that day got everything handed to him on a silver plate, all he had to do was stay on track and cross the start/finish line.
Kubica, Kimi and Hamilton all started outside top 10, except Kubica who started 10th.

You sound like RBR who financed both teams would get upset if one team won anything. It´s ridiculous frankly.
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FoxHound
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Comparing RB & Merc ....

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Nando wrote:But he´s not with Red Bull. He´s with Red Bull Technologies and his job was to design TWO cars that was designed to win races.
Both of them.
*He is currently the chief technical officer of the Red Bull Racing Formula One team

*Red Bull Racing announced on 8 November 2005 that Newey would join the team from February 2006.

* The Guardian reported that Newey would be getting around $10 million a year at Red Bull Racing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Newey

I dont need to add anything there.
Nando wrote:They were not a B-team because it was largely identical cars. just a different team.
*Scuderia Toro Rosso is the junior/sister team of Red Bull Racing, with the aim of developing the skills of promising drivers for the senior team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuderia_Toro_Rosso

I don't need to add anything there.
Nando wrote: And you can not forget the fact that Vettel in Monza that day got everything handed to him on a silver plate, all he had to do was stay on track and cross the start/finish line.
Kubica, Kimi and Hamilton all started outside top 10, except Kubica who started 10th.
Torro Rosso 39 points over the season.
Red Bull 29 points over the season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Formula_One_season
Not much to add there.
Nando wrote:You sound like RBR who financed both teams would get upset if one team won anything.
At the end of the season, I'm sure everyone at Red Bull Racing where having a party after getting stuffed by the B-team.
Mateschitz was popping champagne at his marvellous Torro Rosso team that showed how to do it for 2 and a half times less than Red Bull racing. Newey must have been doing cartwheels infront of his Red Bull racing colleagues at the manner of his exquisite STR 3 design which trumped his RB4(which he incidentally spent way more time and effort on.
Nando wrote:It´s ridiculous frankly.
Quite :wink:
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Nando
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Red Bull Technology is a subsidiary of energy drink company Red Bull relating to motor racing. It was set up by Red Bull to design, engineer and build the chassis for its Formula One racing team, Red Bull Racing.
Among its employees, Red Bull Technology currently employs top aerodynamicist Adrian Newey, as well as Toro Rosso technical director Giorgio Ascanelli.
Clearly he was designing cars for both teams in 2008. One of them happened to win a race, how is he supposed to get pissed because of that?
The cars he designed were pretty much identical, again, why would he get pissed when a car he designed won a race?

Since 2006 they have beaten Red Bull once. While Red Bull has beaten STR on many many many many occasions.
It wasn´t like they won a championship, they finished ahead in the standings, big deal.

Btw, does it say anything about Toro Rosso "was built to be fast, but not fast enough"? No it doesn´t.
It´s a sister-team, not an inferior team with cars designed to be slower then the Red Bulls.

That universal alignment win was what got them ahead of RBR, again, big deal.
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"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

Nando
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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I can tell you right now Dietrich is pissed. Why? Because STR is not competitive at all.
So the notion that he would be pissed because a team he owned came out on top of another team he owned is ridiculous.

If RBR and STR can fight for wins day in day out that would mean paradise for Dietrich.
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"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

munudeges
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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raymondu999 wrote:I am honestly struggling to see how the failure of RBR's racing team/drivers to capitalise on a winning design while Vettel + Toro Rosso's racing team could is a failure of Newey's. It's a failure of RBR racing team + drivers at the operational level.
Stop feeding him because the thread will go downhill and end up getting locked again, and you'll probably end up going nuts yourself.

In reality this has nothing to do with Red Bull per se. JET has some 'issues' where he tries to equate Red Bull's past to that of Mercedes to assure himself that the position they find themselves in is not their fault and that things will be alright in the end. It's really quite bemusing, and sad, to watch.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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A shame it has got personal now you have joined conversation.

What is sad is that one cannot compare any precedent with any other team and the parallels (new owners, tough start) without being ridiculed in public fashion.
That is the real tragedy here.
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SilverArrow
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Why all the drama? The whole point was that firing people, especially at this stage, doesn't often pay off. If anyone is arguing that STR isn't the junior team to RBR they're nuts.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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SilverArrow wrote:Why all the drama? The whole point was that firing people, especially at this stage, doesn't often pay off. If anyone is arguing that STR isn't the junior team to RBR they're nuts.
+1
It's a feeder team to red bull that outperformed the senior team in 2008.
These are insurmountable facts.

The relevance it has to this thread is that knee jerk sackings did not occur at red bull due to this happening.
People calling for heads to roll ought to see this, before baying for even more blood at Mercedes or ridiculing them as incompetent(or similar).

Red bull have proven that you can have 3 years of doing nothing in particular, followed by a big step backwards, to then becoming what we have seen today.
Is that so hard to fathom?
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gato azul
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote:
gato azul wrote:So why try to bully your opinion onto everybody else.
You have lost me now Gato :wtf:
Have I ?
Take a look for yourself and try to see.
FoxHound wrote: You still don't grasp it do you? Newey was not employed by Mateschitz to make Torro Rosso win. His over riding responsibility was Red Bull.
I will repeat this again and again....
Keep repeating your opinions, still does not make it any more or less true.
But don't try to paint them as some facts, everyone else has to acknowledge.
Do you have any quotes from Mateschitz &/or Newey, expressing your sentiments about the STR win in 2008?

You can keep comparing RBR to MGP as much as you like and try to draw parallels and conclusions, but you don't know what
their respective business plans, roadmaps and time frames were.
What we know as a fact today is, that MGP has failed to reach their milestones/objectives, the guy in charge Norbert Haug has just said as much - and it cost him his job.

It matters little, if another team at the same time did better or worse.
You can rationalize the failures of the last 3 years as much as you like, and you can keep telling people, that all is well and all goes to plan.
That they (MGP) just need a bit more time and perhaps a bit more money, and then all will be good.
In the meantime the board of Daimler, has decided, that this was not quite what they had in mind, when they gave the green light to that project.
Therefore they decided that some changes are needed, to try and salvage the situation.
They lost faith/confidence in Haug to be able, to pull that thing back on track, so they decided to give someone else the job.

Now, if this will yield any positive results in the future remains to be seen, but they concluded that the guy(s) currently running the show, and getting them into this endeavor is not up to the task any longer.
It may still be a good plan on paper (competing in F1 with their own team), but only if you can pull it off in the way it was envisioned. Otherwise, it's just a money burning exercise, with no or negative impact on the core business.
One of the key shareholders must have seen it in a similar light, and decided to cash in his chips and go play somewhere else, leaving Daimler to pick up the tab.
Not sure if that was part of the original plan, but it will have an impact on the cost of the whole project as far as Daimler is concerned.

On a different note.
What are we making of the change in MD for MHPE?
Just a coincidence, planed since a long time anyway and not related to recent events, or part of a general senior management shake up for the whole F1 project?
Any reason for this? Any relation to the state of the 2014 engine project?
Last edited by gato azul on 14 Dec 2012, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.

Nando
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote: It's a feeder team to red bull that outperformed the senior team in 2008.
These are insurmountable facts.
Yes we know Red Bull beat Red Bull in 2008, anything else?
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raymondu999
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote:You still don't grasp it do . Which did he spend more time doing? Red Bull of course.
Umm, no. They were one and the same car, just run by different teams and running different engines.
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mantikos
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Can ya'll stop the ramblings about Red Bull and all that Bull sh1t - I come here to read about Merc not RBR - if you wanna talk RBR go to that thread - leave this freaknig thread along and take your pissing contest elsewhere.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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gato azul wrote: Keep repeating your opinions....You can keep comparing RBR to MGP as much as you like and try to draw parallels and conclusions, but you don't know what
their respective business plans, roadmaps and time frames were.
.............What we know as a fact today is, that MGP has failed to reach their milestones/objectives,

All very well Gato.

Now can you explain to me, in similar fashion why it is ok to bash this team week in week out?
People don't know the road maps is your answer. We know it cost Haug his job, but he was a PR man not an engineer.

You see, it is my opinion that it is far more constructive to make comparison's with other teams in similar position to Mercedes when they came in, like Red Bull, than to sit and bang on about how rubbish and incompetent this team is.
You see where I'm coming from my feline friend?
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