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Sebastian Vettel has won the Malaysian GP after passing his teammate following an extremely hard fought battle 10 laps from the end. Mercedes impressed as well with Hamilton finishing on the podium, just ahead of his teammate Nico Rosberg.
I'm not sure anyone has claimed the "but Sebastian Vettel has been told" part. If that were the case, that would be a way deeper conspiracy than anyone is imagining, implying or stating. Instead, simply Vettel had been told that it means the same as Mark knew it means, and Vettel ignored that to his advantage.Diesel wrote:Of course you are all correct. Sources confirm that the message is actually a coded message that Mark Webber understands to mean "your team mate will not overtake you" but Sebastian Vettel has been told means "right he thinks you won't overtake, get him!".
If you get some of that evidence, present your case - which counters mine - then members on here might be prepared to sway one way or the other.Diesel wrote:Of course you are all correct. Sources confirm that the message is actually a coded message that Mark Webber understands to mean "your team mate will not overtake you" but Sebastian Vettel has been told means "right he thinks you won't overtake, get him!".
Cam wrote:Maybe it is a 'multi' switch. But the numbers don't seem to go to 21, do they? So the theory goes - tie in the opposite 'C' switch to make the 2 and use the MULT switch to make the 1'.Diesel wrote:So because MULT is missing 1 letter it means nothing?
Why would they say "Multi" why not "Banana 21"? Why not "Elephant 21" ?
We get that. Ok. So where is some further supporting evidence? We can't just take your word for it - no matter how obvious it may initially appear. Go and get a list of sources that agree with you, or try to tie your theory in by comparing it with other steering wheels that use the same ECU. Find an obscure Patent that show one switch overriding all others in an ECU. Show a similar feature on another car........ anything....... just show something more than one pic.
Agreed, Multi-21 almost certainly means "turn the engine all the way down, drive smoothly, conserve fuel and tyres, don't race each other, don't overtake, coast both cars to the finish in the order they're in".turbof1 wrote:I agree its a teamorder. What is very likely is that the word multi refers to a multi-map setting on the steering wheel, and the 21 just hold position. The multi is probably related to the MULT button, but isn't telling us which setting is used. The term multi21 encompasses a range of orders, including the multi-map setting, but not excluding other things.
I haven't used an F1 steering wheel - but from what I can see, the amount of knobs are not that great. On a straight you could adjust each one several times over - which is my theory. There is no 'one' setting - but an instruction to adjust all relevant settings and stay in position. In fact, I would offer that having one 'overriding' setting could be a bad thing if it was selected accidentally.Diesel wrote:Oh come on, seriously, predefined race configurations have been common knowledge for ages! Do you seriously believe the driver is expected to change every single setting on the wheel individually during a race? The wheel is programmed with some predefined configurations for the race. They'll have a few for wet conditions, a few for fuel save, some to adjust for when KERS is active and some for when it's not. The times where these predefined configurations aren't suitable, they'll improvise and tell the driver to change some of the other settings manually.
No, a theory is something which can be definitively disproven. Until you have a method of disproving it, all you have is a hypothesis. So, what's your theory, and what would disprove it?sAx wrote:I guess that's were we differ then! A theory is not the same as stating a fact, ie that which can definitaely proven.Cam wrote:I would have thought that someone who claims to be a "Occupation:Independent Environment Scientist" would be prepared to lay down enough evidence of 'confirmed technical information' to make a solid theory - no? Isn't that what scientists do? You cannot complain about one persons posts, without abiding by your own rules - it's called hypocrisy.sAx wrote:Wouldn't suggest that if I was you, we'll just end up seeing another jpg of the RB8!
So you're now complete disputing that predefined configurations even existing on F1 steering wheels? Just to be clear.Cam wrote:I haven't used an F1 steering wheel - but from what I can see, the amount of knobs are not that great. On a straight you could adjust each one several times over - which is my theory. There is no 'one' setting - but an instruction to adjust all relevant settings and stay in position. In fact, I would offer that having one 'overriding' setting could be a bad thing if it was selected accidentally.Diesel wrote:Oh come on, seriously, predefined race configurations have been common knowledge for ages! Do you seriously believe the driver is expected to change every single setting on the wheel individually during a race? The wheel is programmed with some predefined configurations for the race. They'll have a few for wet conditions, a few for fuel save, some to adjust for when KERS is active and some for when it's not. The times where these predefined configurations aren't suitable, they'll improvise and tell the driver to change some of the other settings manually.
So, I'll make a further effort to find evidence of drivers making multiple changes to settings per lap - will that help?
No, not at all. Although I have no in-depth technical knowledge of how it specifically works - my understanding is that by changing settings on the wheel, you change the settings in the ECU - which then make the revenant changes to engine maps, throttle positions, fuel mix, damper, clutch etc... am I close? What I have not heard of - or know of in any other similar application - is a 'one button to rule them all'. I'm asking you to show that to me, please.Diesel wrote:So you're now complete disputing that predefined configurations even existing on F1 steering wheels? Just to be clear.Cam wrote:I haven't used an F1 steering wheel - but from what I can see, the amount of knobs are not that great. On a straight you could adjust each one several times over - which is my theory. There is no 'one' setting - but an instruction to adjust all relevant settings and stay in position. In fact, I would offer that having one 'overriding' setting could be a bad thing if it was selected accidentally.Diesel wrote:Oh come on, seriously, predefined race configurations have been common knowledge for ages! Do you seriously believe the driver is expected to change every single setting on the wheel individually during a race? The wheel is programmed with some predefined configurations for the race. They'll have a few for wet conditions, a few for fuel save, some to adjust for when KERS is active and some for when it's not. The times where these predefined configurations aren't suitable, they'll improvise and tell the driver to change some of the other settings manually.
So, I'll make a further effort to find evidence of drivers making multiple changes to settings per lap - will that help?
That is nonsense. We are talking 13 laps with a power difference of 5%. In terms of engine performance management that has a very marginal impact. As I have said before the teams had to make a choice between two evils and they managed to pick the wrong one. Bernie is 100% correct that team orders and engine down turning has no place in the second race of the season. This is supposed to be an entertainment event and not an engine saving procession. The engines are designed for the use they get. There is no objective need to castrate racing drivers and frustrate the viewers. Red Bull and Merc should be called before the FiA for bringing the sport into disrepute.myurr wrote:I'm a computer programmer not a lawyer, but nice try.WhiteBlue wrote:Spoken like a lawyer that you probably are. At least it looks to me that you do not understand balancing development and technology risks with operational measures. Naturally there is always a marginal safety benefit in engine saving but that has to be balanced against the detrimental effekt is has on the race drivers in this case. I have clearly identified that kind of unbalanced options Red Bull had on their plate. My considered opinion is that they got it terribly wrong and their 2013 campaign is exposed to great risks unnecessarily. Two fighting tom cats under one roof can be a catastrophe as McLaren learned to the ruin of their 2007 championship campaign. They clearly had the best car and lost it all. Just my humble opinion.
As others are pointing out to you, but you're continuing to ignore, all engines have a life span and after a while you'll either damage them, blow them up, or lose power. There's one fact that you cannot deny, have not addressed, and blows your argument out of the water: ALL teams save their engines for at least some of the time in ALL races.
There's always a balance but there are huge benefits to saving the engines whenever you are able, one of the many reasons teams employ team orders (particularly after the final stops) to bring the cars home with as little wear and tear and risk as possible. Red Bull have employed the same tactics at every single race for the last few years, they aren't suddenly magically getting it wrong just because your golden boy is being criticised.
Uh, it can't change throttle position, the throttle pedal does that. And it can't make any changes to the dampers, that's called active suspension and it's illegal. It's not likely the clutch would be included, that would be done on a button as part of the bite point find. It's likely to be a combination of fuel mix, engine map and diff settings, all with the intention of putting minimal stress on the engine, gearbox and tyres.Cam wrote: No, not at all. Although I have no in-depth technical knowledge of how it specifically works - my understanding is that by changing settings on the wheel, you change the settings in the ECU - which then make the revenant changes to engine maps, throttle positions, fuel mix, damper, clutch etc... am I close? What I have not heard of - or know of in any other similar application - is a 'one button to rule them all'. I'm asking you to show that to me, please.
What it can do though is modify the curve that maps throttle pedal position onto throttle application in the engine, within the limitations of 0 travel being engine idle, and full travel being full throttle.Diesel wrote:Uh, it can't change throttle positionCam wrote: No, not at all. Although I have no in-depth technical knowledge of how it specifically works - my understanding is that by changing settings on the wheel, you change the settings in the ECU - which then make the revenant changes to engine maps, throttle positions, fuel mix, damper, clutch etc... am I close? What I have not heard of - or know of in any other similar application - is a 'one button to rule them all'. I'm asking you to show that to me, please.