Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 2013?

[sennafan24]

he is doing a fantastic job at the moment in my opinion. Last weekend Pole+P5 was the max.

Agreed

But some will argue that Vettel is simply out racing him, I say that is complete nonsense.

That's because he is.

I disagree, I think the Red Bull has a significant advantage in race pace most weekends.

[Stradivarius]

I think the last couple of pages contain more feelings than facts. I think we had reached a pretty good, although not flawless algorithm for comparing the teammates. However, this comparison is based on results and nothing more. It could be possible to take into account all the things that we know isn't in the control of the drivers, and the conclusions might be a bit different, especially as long as we are only considering a few races. But in the long run, things like punctures, mechanical failures and team mistakes will even out. The only thing that won't necessarily even out is team orders and systematic favouritism of one driver. But that is usually very easy to discover, so it's no problem to account for it. Besides, team orders are usually only given when one of the drivers has already clearly proven he is better, although there might be exceptions like Merecedes' team order in Malaysia.

So why not let the results speak for themselves? If you disagree with the conclusion, you should present a valid argument against the way the results are evaluated, not against the conclusion itself. I still find it unreasonable to give qualifying more emphasis than its actual influence on the race result. Qualifying performance is easy to measure, but it only shows a small piece of the big picture. I guess most people agree that so far, Red Bull has had a better car than Mercedes. But in qualifying, Mercedes is clearly better with 6 poles to Red Bull's 3. But as we have seen many times, qualifying doesn't mean anything more than an advantage in the race. It's not as simple as saying "pole position to Hamilton, and race victory to Vettel, so it's 1 - 1 and they are equal."

[mnmracer]

I think the last couple of pages contain more feelings than facts. I think we had reached a pretty good, although not flawless algorithm for comparing the teammates. However, this comparison is based on results and nothing more. It could be possible to take into account all the things that we know isn't in the control of the drivers, and the conclusions might be a bit different, especially as long as we are only considering a few races. But in the long run, things like punctures, mechanical failures and team mistakes will even out. The only thing that won't necessarily even out is team orders and systematic favouritism of one driver. But that is usually very easy to discover, so it's no problem to account for it. Besides, team orders are usually only given when one of the drivers has already clearly proven he is better, although there might be exceptions like Merecedes' team order in Malaysia.

So why not let the results speak for themselves? If you disagree with the conclusion, you should present a valid argument against the way the results are evaluated, not against the conclusion itself. I still find it unreasonable to give qualifying more emphasis than its actual influence on the race result. Qualifying performance is easy to measure, but it only shows a small piece of the big picture. I guess most people agree that so far, Red Bull has had a better car than Mercedes. But in qualifying, Mercedes is clearly better with 6 poles to Red Bull's 3. But as we have seen many times, qualifying doesn't mean anything more than an advantage in the race. It's not as simple as saying "pole position to Hamilton, and race victory to Vettel, so it's 1 - 1 and they are equal."

The problem is that many detractors have used the "Red Bull is dominant, because look at qualifying" excuse for so long now, that they don't know how to deal with this situation.

[sennafan24]

It's not as simple as saying "pole position to Hamilton, and race victory to Vettel, so it's 1 - 1 and they are equal."

To be fair, I think both have performed to a high level with what they have been given this year. Vettel has been given a great all round car, that performs well in qualifying and well in race trim, whilst Lewis has been given a great qualifying car that struggles greatly in race trim most weekends.

Both the majority of weekends have made the most of what they have been given and the circumstances around them. There is a argument each way

- Lewis has had two off weekends (Monaco and Spain), whilst Vettel has had zero (Unless you count Sepang?)

in contrast to

- Lewis is performing in a new team that he has to adapt to, and subdue a harder teammate than Vettel faces that can pickpocket his points and performance more.

I am a Lewis fan, and by no means a Vettel fan. But I try and be balanced, both sides are guilty of trying to give credit one way and not give any the other sadly.

[PlatinumZealot]

Lewis had that freaking fric system to get a hold of. It was clear in Spain he had no-setup whatsoever and In Monaco it was clear it was braking issues (slow sector one but fastest everywhere else). And with those problems he made the most of it.

The RedBull 9 though is a car that is undisputedly the best right now. Guaranteed at leas 2nd row in quali and Guaranteed race pace. It is a no Brainer Seb has an easier job than Lewis.

[sennafan24]

Lewis had that freaking fric system to get a hold of. It was clear in Spain he had no-setup whatsoever and In Monaco it was clear it was braking issues (slow sector one but fastest everywhere else). And with those problems he made the most of it.

The RedBull 9 though is a car that is undisputedly the best right now. Guaranteed at leas 2nd row in quali and Guaranteed race pace. It is a no Brainer Seb has an easier job than Lewis.

I agree, but unlike 2010-2012, I actually think Vettel has been top draw this year. In 2012 Webber was actually outscoring him after about 7 or 8 rounds, this year Seb has not given him a sniff, Webber is over the hill and shopworn but it is still impressive how Vettel has performed this year.

Vettel has not done much wrong this year, Seb has not had a standout outstanding performance like Lewis at Silverstone, but every performance he has had I have ranked as decent, that is some consistency.

Kimi has some challenge next year, 6 months ago I would have favored Kimi to outperform him, but not now,

[SectorOne]

and In Monaco it was clear it was braking issues (slow sector one but fastest everywhere else).

Actually in Monaco it was not switching on his tires in S1. Vettel mentioned having the exact same problem.

[Ray]

I think it's pretty clear that Grosjean was never going to beat Raikonnen by any stretch of the imagination. He's simply nowhere near Kimi's level on any metric, and his fast days are vastly outweighed by his stupid days. Only a few (and far between) weekends has he gotten the combo of pace, racecraft, and mistake free drive down well enough. I still have no idea why people think that he was ever going to be anywhere near Kimi. Kimi doesn't make mistakes, Kimi is a reliable points scorer, and Kimi is blindingly quick. All of those almost every weekend. I think I've seen that combo from Grosjean maybe twice during both his past and his current stint in Formula 1. He was never going to beat Kimi, you don't forget how to be fast and mistake free just because you went rallying for two years. Dare I say it, I consider Grosjean nothing more than a French Massa. Quick in their own right, deadly fast with a good combination, but never great on every given weekend. He's never going to be on Kimi's level.

[Stradivarius]

It's not as simple as saying "pole position to Hamilton, and race victory to Vettel, so it's 1 - 1 and they are equal."

To be fair, I think both have performed to a high level with what they have been given this year.

To be clear, I was not really comparing Hamilton and Vettel, as they obviously have different machinery. I was merely trying to show that qualifying performance is only significant to the extent that it allows you to perform well in the race. During the last years, Red Bull has been great at qualifying, but their race pace has also been strong enough to win races and titles. Nevertheless, Red Bull's qualifying performance has been the key to many of their victories.

Mercedes has several times this year been great at qualifying, but then it turned out to be worth nothing because they could not deliver the performance in the race. In Spain, Rosberg/Mercedes took pole and finished 6th. Alonso/Ferrari qualified 5th and went on to win the race. Overall, there is no doubt that Alonso/Ferrari was best. But when weighing qualifying and race against each other, it is 1 - 1 between Rosberg/Mercedes and Alonso/Ferrari, which I think makes no sense.

Maybe my argument can be better expressed in the following way: The qualifying result is determined by qualifying performance only. The race result is determined by the qualifying performance and race performance combined. Therefore it makes no sense to me to add qualifying once more into the equation. Qualifying is already accounted for when looking at the race result alone.

Adding qualifying and race together here, is like adding the score after the first half to the score after full time of a football game. So if Liverpool plays Manchester United and leads 2 - 0 after the first half, and then looses the game 2 - 3 after 3 goals to United in the second half, this way of calculating the score would count Liverpool's first half goals twice. 2 - 3 after full time plus 2 - 0 after half time equals 4 - 3 in total. And Liverpool is considered better than Manchester United despite loosing the game. The logic is exactly the same here: The first half time score is deteremined by the first half performance only, while the full time score is determined by the first half performance and the second half performance combined. So the full time score covers everything and it makes no sense to add half time score into the equation.

[Juzh]

Kimi doesn't make mistakes

That's a good one. Suzuka spin, multiple off track excursions in brasil. I'm sure there were more, but I cant recall atm.

In 2012 Webber was actually outscoring him after about 7 or 8 rounds

Alternator malfunction in valencia.

Vettel has not done much wrong this year

Much? What exactly has he done wrong?

Seb has not had a standout outstanding performance like Lewis at Silverstone

What performance at silverstone? You mean fast quali? Vettel was 1s clear of 2nd place massa and even more too alonso in malaysia. Or are you really judjing entire performance by first 8 laps in the race?
Vettel took all pole positins in the wet or mix conditions when mercs obvious pace advantage was nullified.

but every performance he has had I have ranked as decent, that is some consistency.

9-0 in quali and 8-1 in race vs webber. What exactly is your definition of more than decent? What driver in your opinion has produced a performance better than decent this year?

[Pierce89]

Kimi doesn't make mistakes

That's a good one. Suzuka spin, multiple off track excursions in brasil. I'm sure there were more, but I cant recall atm.

In 2012 Webber was actually outscoring him after about 7 or 8 rounds

Alternator malfunction in valencia.

Vettel has not done much wrong this year

Much? What exactly has he done wrong?

Seb has not had a standout outstanding performance like Lewis at Silverstone

What performance at silverstone? You mean fast quali? Vettel was 1s clear of 2nd place massa and even more too alonso in malaysia. Or are you really judjing entire performance by first 8 laps in the race?
Vettel took all pole positins in the wet or mix conditions when mercs obvious pace advantage was nullified.

but every performance he has had I have ranked as decent, that is some consistency.

9-0 in quali and 8-1 in race vs webber. What exactly is your definition of more than decent? What driver in your opinion has produced a performance better than decent this year?

Do you not ever get tired of trying to convince people Vettel is some kind of superhuman? Sure, he's a great driver but I can think of at least three drivers that could have matched Vettel's accomplishments were their places swapped(Alo,Ham,Rai).

[sennafan24]

Seb has not had a standout outstanding performance like Lewis at Silverstone

What performance at silverstone? You mean fast quali? Vettel was 1s clear of 2nd place massa and even more too alonso in malaysia. Or are you really judjing entire performance by first 8 laps in the race?
Vettel took all pole positins in the wet or mix conditions when mercs obvious pace advantage was nullified.

The worst thing here is was that I am actually giving Vettel credit, but you seem to want people to rank him as some superhuman combo of Senna and Schumi.

Lewis had a amazing stint in Silverstone on Hard Tyres that lasted longer than it had any right to, the way he climbed the field was fantastic, if his tyre had not blown up he would have won the race in my opinion. Lewis was tested in all areas of racing that day, and showed he could excel in all areas as well.

What has Vettel done wrong? Well only a fool would say any driver has had the perfect season, but I would be a nitpicker if I named anything wrong with Vettel this season, but for you seeing as you are so not defensive I will name a few.

- Almost crashed in Canada

- Has been outperformed in qualifying at times by Lewis and Nico. I think there one lap pace is slightly better than Seb's.

I agree that in 2012 that Webber had a bit of luck that saw him above Vettel in points, but there were weekends where Webber outperformed him, maybe only 3 or 4 but they were there.

[mnmracer]

- Has been outperformed in qualifying at times by Lewis and Nico. I think there one lap pace is slightly better than Seb's.

You are one of the few people that believe the Red Bull is faster than the Mercedes...

[sennafan24]

- Has been outperformed in qualifying at times by Lewis and Nico. I think there one lap pace is slightly better than Seb's.

You are one of the few people that believe the Red Bull is faster than the Mercedes...

Some weekends yes, other weekends no.

I have generally been more impressed with say Lewis's poles in Silverstone and Germany than Vettel's performances in quali this year.

In Germany I felt Mercedes and Red Bull were fairly equal in qualifying for example. And Lewis's lap at Silverstone was Senna-esque, whether he had the best car or not he still beat his teammate (he is no slouch) by almost half a second.

[Juzh]

The worst thing here is was that I am actually giving Vettel credit, but you seem to want people to rank him as some superhuman combo of Senna and Schumi.

Somehow people think when vettel wins by 10s it's a boring race and that he simply had the best car. Strangely though, when hamilton or alonso win by a comfortable margin its always driver skill in a crap/sub par car (to red bulls of course). I aint saying vettel is better than them or anything like that, those words have been put into my mouth by some people here, but he is as good as. I'm just trying to point that out.

- Almost crashed in Canada

True. Didn't cost him anything though. Alonso as well "almost" crashed, which then "almost" allowed hamilton back past.

- Has been outperformed in qualifying at times by Lewis and Nico. I think there one lap pace is slightly better than Seb's.

Merc has clearly been the fastest car in dry conditions maybe since the begining of the season. I think a majority of people can see that pretty clearly now.
On race day, both hamilton and rosberg have been beaten of the line by vettel, who has yet to loose a position on the first lap this year.

I have generally been more impressed with say Lewis's poles in Silverstone and Germany than Vettel's performances in quali this year.
In Germany I felt Mercedes and Red Bull were fairly equal in qualifying for example. And Lewis's lap at Silverstone was Senna-esque, whether he had the best car or not he still beat his teammate (he is no slouch) by almost half a second.

Vettel beat webber by 0.5s quite a lot of times as well, why then is hamilton's achievement more worthy?