2013 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos

[i70q7m7ghw]

Agreed.

Any other driver would concede to the fact that you will only be given one car length. Not an inch more.
That´s what you have to expect if you are on the outside of a corner.

Bottas was getting squeezed but wanted an accident instead.

Obviously the stewards was a bit hot on the cake today. Drive throughs was given out like candy on a stick.

So if we translate your judgement of this incident to the Webber, Vettel one in Turkey a few years ago it was all Webbers fault as he should have conceded and Vettel did nothing wrong?

Bottas had every right to be where he was. Hamilton drifted into him and caused the collision and took a driver out of the race. The punishment was fully justified.

The rules as I understand them are that you must leave a cars width, which I believe Hamilton did, and that you are allowed to make 1 move and are allowed to return to the racing line. Hamilton did this, but it was as he was returning to the racing line that he collided with Bottas. He wasn't "drifting" as you put it.

I would say this was a racing incident really. Neither driver could fully explain what happened which suggests neither driver was fully aware of the other drivers position on the track.

[miguelalvesreis]

It was clear as daylight that Hamilton turned into Bottas, lapped or not. You don't do that, it was a deserved penalty for Hamilton.

Just the fact that he changed direction on a braking zone is enough to deem him guilty of it

[turbof1]

Yeah Hamilton's fault. Nothing to do with Bottas being a lap down; you can't tolerate one driver running into the other. Hamilton has strangely a lot of similar experiences throughout the years.

[Mandrake]

I don't know if the penalty was necessary. Given that Massa was penalised I expected HAM to get a penalty as well. The stewards were very strict that race.

Bottas had fresh rubber and would've made the corner easily, it was just bad luck/being unconcentrated on Hamilton's side that he turned a tad bit too far to the outside. Also, we've seen banging wheels quite often without tire failures for both cars. So again bad luck that both suffered such a damage.

Lapped cars are and should be entitled to repass. With different strategies and tire degradation it would be stupid to make the actually quicker car stay behind and wait. Other drivers have dealt differently with such situation during the race and have not lost time with it or had an accident.

[SectorOne]

Bottas was trying the impossible. He would have run off the track as he was going to fast for where he was. He's clearly wrong. Lewis wouldnt expect anyone to be driving at that speed at that moment. There's just no way Bottas would have went round the corner.
He's ruined his own race due to taking an idiotic risk.

Agreed.

Any other driver would concede to the fact that you will only be given one car length. Not an inch more.
That´s what you have to expect if you are on the outside of a corner.

Bottas was getting squeezed but wanted an accident instead.

Obviously the stewards was a bit hot on the cake today. Drive throughs was given out like candy on a stick.

So if we translate your judgement of this incident to the Webber, Vettel one in Turkey a few years ago it was all Webbers fault as he should have conceded and Vettel did nothing wrong?

Bottas had every right to be where he was. Hamilton drifted into him and caused the collision and took a driver out of the race. The punishment was fully justified.

Vettel was the one getting squeezed in Turkey. Not Webber. (Vettel´s fault)
We can look at Grosjean Button in Hungary. Grosjean squeezed Button out of the track which is wrong.
Bottas had more then a tire´s width left of the track.

Take Lap 1 Vettel and Rosberg as he´s getting passed. Vettel was the one holding the hammer and he squeezes Rosberg to left as they head towards T1 to make sure Rosberg´s line is compromised properly.
Rosberg knows he must follow suit otherwise there´s a crash.
In battles some rules are unwritten.

[turbof1]

The rule states leaving a one car width between you and the edge of the track. That is the minimum expected from a defending driver. However, it does not give the defending driver the right to push off the other one even if he complied with that rule. The rule gives the defending driver a duty he must comply with; it does not give him any rights. The rule isn't a freepass for evoking race incident.

Edit: this is the exact wording of 20.3:

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

Note the wording. "At least one car width". So it isn't limited to one car width. For all intensions and purposes, hamilton was the one going off the racing line and Bottas was the on the racing line. Hamilton made a manoeuvre and should have looked better in his mirrors. Article 20.5 describes this:

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

[i70q7m7ghw]

It was clear as daylight that Hamilton turned into Bottas, lapped or not. You don't do that, it was a deserved penalty for Hamilton.

Just the fact that he changed direction on a braking zone is enough to deem him guilty of it

He didn't "turn in" on anyone, he was already on the inside. He was moving back to the racing line, which is allowed under the rules providing you leave a cars width, as he did.

What Hamilton did was try to squeeze Bottas back towards the edge of the track. If I'm honest, I don't believe he even tried to do that, I don't think either driver was fully aware of the other's position on the track.

Racing incident, 60% Hamilton's fault for not just conceding to the a car he wasn't even racing, that was his biggest mistake.

[SiLo]

It was clear as daylight that Hamilton turned into Bottas, lapped or not. You don't do that, it was a deserved penalty for Hamilton.

Just the fact that he changed direction on a braking zone is enough to deem him guilty of it

He didn't "turn in" on anyone, he was already on the inside. He was moving back to the racing line, which is allowed under the rules providing you leave a cars width, as he did.

What Hamilton did was try to squeeze Bottas back towards the edge of the track. If I'm honest, I don't believe he even tried to do that, I don't think either driver was fully aware of the other's position on the track.

Racing incident, 60% Hamilton's fault for not just conceding to the a car he wasn't even racing, that was his biggest mistake.

Agreed. Best explanation I've seen for it so far.

Such a shame we didn't get a wet race, I was praying all day for it and it never came! But at least it wasn't such a bore fest as all the there races we've had this season, so there was that.

[Jonnycraig]

As Davidson showed on the 'Skypad', Hamilton was looking in his left mirror whilst Bottas was on his right side. He didn't know where Bottas was and drifted into him. If Bottas had been able to carry on then Hamilton may have gotten away with a reprimand after the race but as it was, castiron penalty.

[i70q7m7ghw]

As Davidson showed on the 'Skypad', Hamilton was looking in his left mirror whilst Bottas was on his right side. He didn't know where Bottas was and drifted into him. If Bottas had been able to carry on then Hamilton may have gotten away with a reprimand after the race but as it was, castiron penalty.

He was looking to the apex in my opinion, no reason to look in his left mirror. Bottas should have been aware of Hamilton moving across, he also didn't appear to be and didn't seem sure where Hamilton's car was.

As I said, the silliest thing about it was Hamilton really should have just let Bottas have the corner, and if Bottas didn't pull away he would have got blue flags and had to let Hamilton through.

[komninosm]

It was clear as daylight that Hamilton turned into Bottas, lapped or not. You don't do that, it was a deserved penalty for Hamilton.

Just the fact that he changed direction on a braking zone is enough to deem him guilty of it

He didn't "turn in" on anyone, he was already on the inside. He was moving back to the racing line, which is allowed under the rules providing you leave a cars width, as he did.

What Hamilton did was try to squeeze Bottas back towards the edge of the track. If I'm honest, I don't believe he even tried to do that, I don't think either driver was fully aware of the other's position on the track.

Racing incident, 60% Hamilton's fault for not just conceding to the a car he wasn't even racing, that was his biggest mistake.

Exactly. This penalty was ridiculous, especially since we had already seen 3 incidents before it where 2 cars had wheels colliding. No penalties were given to those drivers. It was mere luck that their tires did not explode too.
Comparing this penalty to the one Massa got is ridiculous. Massa was warned not to cross the patched area and he did it again. That area symbolizes a wall, but isn't a wall to prevent accidents. It's a safety measure for the wall that starts right behind it. Massa is a jerk for whining like that afterwards.

[Phil]

The rule states leaving a one car width between you and the edge of the track. That is the minimum expected from a defending driver. However, it does not give the defending driver the right to push off the other one even if he complied with that rule. The rule gives the defending driver a duty he must comply with; it does not give him any rights. The rule isn't a freepass for evoking race incident.

I see both points as valid. I just re-watched a replay of the clash and it's just rather unfortunate; I'm not entirely sure, but they collided by a milimeter of margins - just as Hamilton hits Bottas, he was just about turning in that would have made him move away from Bottas again.

What's also worth pointing out, is that Hamiltons direction was already pointing towards the racing line when Bottas wasn't along side him yet - and from there he was moving slightly outwards until he was going to turn into his apex. In other words, Bottas was already well aware that the gap was shrinking as he pulled up besides Hamilton. Now, maybe Bottas turned in ever so slighty too early or Hamilton too late. What I do find a bit unfortunate is that Bottas did have more space to use to avoid contact, yet he didn't. At some point, when you move up on someone on the outside, there is always the chance that your fellow opponent might not see you, not know you are there or simply might drift outwards if he is on the limit of his grip - which is why the inside of a corner is always the place you want to be when overtaking someone and overtaking someone is always riskier on the outside and requires a fair amount of fairplay and respect from your opponent (assuming he knows you are there).

It was unwise of Bottas to put himself there - and unwise of Hamilton to not be aware that Bottas had effectively pulled up next to him. It's also probably unfortunate since Bottas wasn't an opponent - he was a lap down. So he probably didn't expect Bottas to suddenly show up there - on quicker tyres or not. In that sense, it was different to the Kobayashi incident in Spa when Hamilton was overtaking someone he was racing for position (but moved over too soon).

Given that there was space on Bottas side, I would have called it a racing incident. I think Hamilton driving around the track with a puncture was already quite damaging enough and didn't require an additional penalty. Just all very unfortunate, for both.

[komninosm]

What Phil said.
Also:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111601
The Formula 1 rookie admitted that he had not realised he was trying to un-lap himself rather than passing for a position, but still stood by his attempt to overtake.

"I didn't know I was one lap behind him, I thought we were racing," said Bottas.

"But even though I was one lap behind him, I still tried to overtake because at this track, in the middle sector, if you are behind somebody it's very easy to start graining the tyres as you slide a bit more.

Wait, what? He didn't know he was on lap behind (which is stupid in its own right), but then he says that even though he was one lap behind he still tried to overtake? Keep your lies straight man

[i70q7m7ghw]

Bottas's rookie is showing. Didn't seem to know a lot of anything really.

[turbof1]

It's difficult yes. I have to admit that; I also see this discussion is beginning to break up in details and will probably end up soon in a frame by frame analysis, which will still not bring anything conclusive. The same pattern was there in Monaco between Perez and Raikkonen, which got handled off as a racing incident.

Still I feel they took the right decision in case of Hamilton. Obviously Hamilton didn't want this, but it was clumsy. If he used his right mirror this would have been avoided. Bottas was already committed to his line and by the time Hamilton moved over there wasn't time enough to make evasive actions.

However, refraining from giving penalties just because the causing driver already suffered disadvantages is for me out of the question. First and foremost the reason why a penalty is given, is because there is a concern for safety. Anyone who puts someone else at risk in an unnecessary way has to be punished, inside and outside F1. If you cause a traffic accident where the other driver becomes partially disabled, you wouldn't escape punishment because it caused a mental breakdown for you.