Haas - American team in F1

[FW17]

No F1 team has a thermal wind tunnel, manufacturers do, but there is no evidence of it being used. What Merc has will not be available to Haas for the time being. For starters they are going to have a car put together by a third party while there own R&D department is being set up. With every department being set up from scratch it is best they have the maximum possible time to work out their operating procedures and understand the car. Haas has a track a couple of miles away from his current factory so why not get his team up and running for system checks and reliability runs? Setup can always be done during the official winter tests. in 2013 Lotus had designed a car that was suited to the tyre, it is by taking a very conservative approach to the geometry that they achieved that, not by having special data available to them. The data on tyres is the same that is available to all teams.

PS - Why were filming days this year used to validate the reliability of the system?

[Cam]

No F1 team has a thermal wind tunnel, manufacturers do, but there is no evidence of it being used. What Merc has will not be available to Haas for the time being. For starters they are going to have a car put together by a third party while there own R&D department is being set up. With every department being set up from scratch it is best they have the maximum possible time to work out their operating procedures and understand the car. Haas has a track a couple of miles away from his current factory so why not get his team up and running for system checks and reliability runs? Setup can always be done during the official winter tests. in 2013 Lotus had designed a car that was suited to the tyre, it is by taking a very conservative approach to the geometry that they achieved that, not by having special data available to them. The data on tyres is the same that is available to all teams.

PS - Why were filming days this year used to validate the reliability of the system?

You're referring Demonstration Tyres?

In addition to the official testing dates, teams are allowed a filming day restricted to 100 kilometres. Pirelli supplies demonstration tyres for these purposes, which are a different specification to the race tyres and not designed for speed.

I was under the impression the point was that 'any tyres' would be satisfactory. The demonstration tyres clearly has some semblance to the current spec (size, shape, wall behavior etc). I would consider these tyres to be included in a 'current spec tyre' argument.

What I'm looking for is evidence a team has/would consider track testing with a current car with "old" tyres.

[FW17]

What I'm looking for is evidence a team has/would consider track testing with a current car with "old" tyres.

Minardi in 2003 ran Avon slicks at the first test of the season




1992 Honda RC-F1 1.5X with Bridgestone tyres


1996 RC-F1 2.0X with Bridgestone grooves of 1998

[Cam]

What I'm looking for is evidence a team has/would consider track testing with a current car with "old" tyres.

Minardi in 2003 ran Avon slicks at the first test of the season

http://www.verstappen.nl/picture/2003/v ... ingout.jpg

Good find. One point though - they were forced into it. It wasn't by choice. If the team had a choice, would they have gone that way.

Dutchman Jos Verstappen today made his debut with the Minardi team at the Valencia circuit, as the Anglo-Italian squad were forced to continue using Avon F3000 slick tyres.

A team spokesman yesterday said there was no tyre deal yet "and they (Michelin and Bridgestone) are not about to do anything to help us."

The Avon tyres are far different from F1 tyres but for the moment they suffice. With Wilson and Jos Verstappen only just settling into the team, for this week Minardi are not losing out too much.
"It was thoughtful of Avon to supply us with tyres - and they are good tyres," Stoddart told Autosport. "This is Avon helping Minardi out. The purpose of this test was the familiarisation of Justin and of Jos, who's been out of an F1 car for over a year, with an F1 car, so the tyre choice was not crucial. I am convinced that Bridgestone is the right choice for us and I hope that this will be resolved soon."

I appreciate the info too! Thanks. +1

Edit: you posted those honda pics after i posted. They were prototypes and did run track but no mention with what rubber. Those tyres on the car might never have been used. The Avon note was a specific example - I'll accept that with a grain of salt.

It would be good to get a team view on this, whether testing with old tyres is acceptable or something to be avoided.

[NathanOlder]

I think the fact that running the engines in a single seater even with the last goodyear tyres would be against the rules shows that the rule makers have to put these rules in to stop the teams. Otherwise the teams WOULD be doing it. Bench testing cannot give you the accuracy of running the car for real.
I have seen 2014 cars running around on a demo run on a perfectly dry track with Wet tyres on! Just running the systems is all the teams wanted to do at these early stages. As I said before, a lot comes down to the new cars and PU's, which is exactly what Haas is facing. Any running on a track is better than a Test Bench, surely you can see this ?

Remember Ferrari were rumoured to have run the V6 in their LaFerrari test mule. Not sure if this was confirmed though.

I think most people will agree, Wind tunnels, Test Benches, CFD, Simulators are all very very good today, but as it stands NOTHING can yet replace running a real car, with a real engine, on a real track.

[Cam]

Using a mule is perfect - for most things (like a bench). You can test a lot using that and I agree with having that as a tool. I disagree that having a full spec F1 car and trying to gain data using 3 year old tyres or any brand's tyre - is useful.

@WilliamsF1 posted a nice example of the Minardi. But they had no choice in that result.

While I understand "any track time is good", if you're not pushing the limit of the car each time time, you're wasting your time. That is what testing is about. So how can you test the limits of the full package with fundamentally wrong tyres?

Being wrong, I can accept. I've just not seen anything yet to suggest testing like that would be an acceptable outcome.

[NathanOlder]

Yes, but were not talking about pushing to the limit are we. Were talking about Team Haas, Id be suprised if they pushed to the limit before they got to their first GP (Aus 15, or Aus 16) As they have never made an F1 car, they will gain lots by running their PU on old tyres. As said previously, If it were a top team last year, I can see why they wouldnt bother, but such new technology, add to that a new team and maybe 2 new drivers, running on old tyres would be a gain for THIS team.

[bhall]

It's all in the regulations, fellas.

Haas obviously can't test a current car, defined as a one designed for 2013, 2014, and 2015, because it does not have one. At the same time, no team can sell or lend a current car to Haas for testing without informing the FIA (22.1).

Previously raced cars, considered those from 2010, 2011, and 2012, can be used as long as that testing is not undertaken by a third party; the cars remain in their original specification; and they're run with tires manufactured especially for that purpose (22.2). Cars from 2009, deemed historic cars, can test under the same restrictions (22.3).

From a practical standpoint, Haas can't do any meaningful testing, simply because the PU it will race doesn't exist yet.

[countersteer]

Repost from a few days ago before the thread went off... Obviously, I'm into the "get something on the track to prove out systems" school of thought.

What are the testing limitations for a new team? Also, and possibly related, what are the testing limitations on Honda as it prepares for a 2015 entry?

Stretching waaaaaaayyyy out here, and connecting a lot of dots. What would the opportunity be for Haas to ink a technology deal with McLaren and sign a deal with Honda as a supplier. Honda and McLaren would supply everything rear of the monocoque.

Haas could partner with Elan Technologies (3 hours down the road from Kannapolis, NC in Brazelton, GA) for the chassis. The test mule could be (relatively quickly) based off of the Panoz DP01.

They could be pounding out miles at Road Atlanta rather quickly. Haas would get something that works that gets them on the grid. Honda/McLaren gets a LOT of test miles above and beyond the limitations for existing teams. A bespoke chassis could be developed in the meantime. (By who with what expertise is another question...)

I can't see a 2015 debut happening without some really strong partnerships with existing operations.

[FW17]

How good is Ryan Hunter Rays and Will Power?

[Pierce89]

How good is Ryan Hunter Rays and Will Power?

Will Power is damn fast. Juan Pablo Montoya has been destroyed so far in the same team.

[Pierce89]

huray ..America is coming and will conquer formula1 ...
knowing this i should place a bet how quickly HAAS Formula will bag the first Championship ...that must be 3 years ,right ? I think if there is a fundamental truth about Formula 1 than it is this one:
everyone who got into it no matter how much success he or she eventually had -had to realise at some Point he had underestimated the mountain to climb ...be it Driver be it Team ,engineer ,supplier .Quite often very well seasoned formula 1 veterans are up to learn this again .....look no further as Mclaren Ferrari ,Renault ,Lotus,Mercedes have all fallen flat on their faces recently underestimating the Task ahead or just as rattling -unables to find a solution to an Engineering exercise at least on a par to the competition!
To claim you could come in from outside and mix it with those already in the tank is a slight denial of recent realitiy checks,don´t you think so ? Success in Formula 1 is more than mixing the pinnacle of Expertise with an open cheque book ...not because it is rocket science but because it is a damn specialised microuniverse .
let´s wait and see if the American dream is even making the grid next year or the year after.

Wow! You don't believe that given the time to "learn f1" a mostly American team could compete with mostly British teams or mostly Italian teams? Whether you'd like to admit it or not the U.S. put a man on the moon in the 60's and no one else has achieved it yet. The aerospace and defense sectors in the U.S. have enough engineering talent to dominate f1 (or reduce f1 to a smoking hole in the ground )

[countersteer]

Will Power is very quick but he's 33 years old. Kind of late for a new start in F1. IMHO, the man to try to develop would be Josef Newgarden. 24 years old, born and raised outside of Nashville, TN. He has consistently shown well driving for Sarah Fisher's "second tier" team.

[FW17]

33 is not too late, it is more like well experienced


And F1 runs on Microsoft

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Will Power is very good imo, made some stupid mistakes, but he could be a good F1 driver.