Haas - American team in F1

[Cam]

Ultimately - why are they doing this? To win a WDC and WCC or to make money? Haas could certainly be an effective middle man (which sounds like how he's starting anyway), taking sponsor and pay driver money in exchange for an F1 car on the world stage. Perhaps success is secondary? Williams now has a heathy budget and they've won sweet FA since forever. What Haas gets out of this might be far more than we know. Some people seem to make money whether the market is going up, or down.

[bhall]

Williams is still in trouble. Were it not for a $25,000,000 payment from PDVSA to release Maldonado from his contract, the Grove team would have finished 2013 with a net loss of $5,000,000. They've even had to sell their hybrid power division.

There's no money to be made in racing unless you own the sport, and I think anyone who enters Formula One to make money directly from the endeavor is a fool who deserves the financial losses he or she will inevitably face. The best one can hope for these days is marketing exposure, which is undoubtedly Haas' goal.

[Lycoming]

Any GP2 champion or WSR3.5 champion, put them in Andretti or Penske or Ganassi and they will be nowhere near the regular drivers. American series drivers are just as underestimated as American engineering.

Wonder why Bourdais, Barrichello, Sato are all not winning championships stateside. Also dont think any of the current champions driving can do a Mansel (Alonso Maybe)

can't do a mansell ? hamilton would eat them alive
and bordais won 4 indy championships in a row ....and was uncompetitive in F1 , as was sato ; barico was a number 2 driver

Rubens was not competetive in Indycar. Neither was Bourdais, he won champ car championships. That said, neither Sato nor Bourdais ever drove a really competitive F1 car. Rubens at least posted wins and podiums during his Ferrari years, which is more than can be said for Webber at times.

They may do well to look at American SportsCar racers. Pace is a big question naturally, but kids like Sage Karam and Colin Braun at least know how to race, which is far more than can be said for some F1 drivers we all could name. There are plenty of other good drivers in the prototype classes as well.

Ultimately - why are they doing this? To win a WDC and WCC or to make money? Haas could certainly be an effective middle man (which sounds like how he's starting anyway), taking sponsor and pay driver money in exchange for an F1 car on the world stage. Perhaps success is secondary? Williams now has a heathy budget and they've won sweet FA since forever. What Haas gets out of this might be far more than we know. Some people seem to make money whether the market is going up, or down.

Unless you derive some marketing value from it, or you're the one raking in the TV dough, running a racing team is not a way to turn a profit. It's something you sink money in when you've turned a profit elsewhere, or when you convince other people to give you profits they made elsewhere.

[Cam]

Williams is still in trouble. Were it not for a $25,000,000 payment from PDVSA to release Maldonado from his contract, the Grove team would have finished 2013 with a net loss of $5,000,000. They've even had to sell their hybrid power division.

There's no money to be made in racing unless you own the sport, and I think anyone who enters Formula One to make money directly from the endeavor is a fool who deserves the financial losses he or she will inevitably face. The best one can hope for these days is marketing exposure, which is undoubtedly Haas' goal.

Yep, I've read all those reports too - which is what made me think about Maldonado and Williams as a possible future model - they treated him almost like an asset, to be sold as a commodity to boost the bottom line when required. Regardless how they got back in the black, it was done and with no serious results to spruke with. One could say they 'played the game'. With the Europeans now looking into F1 and a sudden renewed push to look at costs, managing a team and making a profit is starting to look conceivable.

With new cost reductions in F1, Haas could conceivably accept big money from drivers and sponsors, all while knowing his exact fixed costs (because it's all outsourced). Haas could also get some serious secondary benefits through his own racing teams by growing his brand as a whole globally and demanding bigger payments from sponsors across other series. So F1 is a means to another end, so to suggest.

I guess I'm trying to figure out why do this. These guys are not dumb and there is no "for the competition", so what is the underlying core benefit that makes this thing viable?

[NathanOlder]

Rubens was not competetive in Indycar. Neither was Bourdais, he won champ car championships. That said, neither Sato nor Bourdais ever drove a really competitive F1 car. Rubens at least posted wins and podiums during his Ferrari years, which is more than can be said for Webber at times.

Champ Car Series was the better series, it was the series that Mansell won in 93. The other series was the Indy Racing League (IRL) and wasnt as big. Then the 2 series merged in 2008. So Bordais won the better series of the time In my opinion.
This series was won by the likes of Villeneuve, Montoya , Mansell, Al Unser Jr, Giles de Feran, Paul Tracy, Bobby Rahal, Michael & Mario Andretti, Al Unser, Emo. And Sebastian Bordais is in this company 4 times in a row I must add.

The other series had Tony Stewart, Scott Dixon, Sam Hornish Jr.

[FW17]

The years SB won the championships, cart was a shadow of its previous self. Top teams had left to Indy and SB did not face the same competition as the current series.

[bhall]

Yep, I've read all those reports too - which is what made me think about Maldonado and Williams as a possible future model - they treated him almost like an asset, to be sold as a commodity to boost the bottom line when required.
[...]

I guess I'm trying to figure out why do this. These guys are not dumb and there is no "for the competition", so what is the underlying core benefit that makes this thing viable?

Well, the $25,000,000 Williams got from PDVSA to release Maldonado was $5,000,000 less than they would have received had he stayed with the team. So, he wasn't "sold" at all. He desperately wanted out and bitched up a storm until it happened. In his mind, a driver of his caliber shouldn't have to toil away at the back of the grid.

Personally, I think he's the worst driver in Formula One and richly deserves every agonizing moment he spends bringing up the rear with a badly compromised Renault PU.

In any event, I'm still inclined to believe Haas will link up with Ferrari, as it would be highly beneficial to both parties. Ferrari is, by far, the highest-profile F1 team in America - as a brief aside, it wouldn't surprise me if 1 out of 3 people here have never even heard of Renault - and America is, by far, Ferrari's largest market. It only makes sense then for the two to leverage the position of the other. Haas Automation will get worldwide exposure, and Montezemolo can realize his long-held vision of a Ferrari run by an American team with an American driver.

[NathanOlder]

The years SB won the championships, cart was a shadow of its previous self. Top teams had left to Indy and SB did not face the same competition as the current series.

True, but he still has his name amongst the best as it was still the same series. So back to American drivers, Its clear that Ryan Hunter-Reay is the best the US has to offer, but at 33, Not really enough time for him to adapt and learn. So IndyCar doesnt really have any US drivers to offer. Anyone else would be a complete guess, So would have to be Daly. As I dont see Rossi as being good enough. Rossi's 1 and on season at GP2 doesnt look any better than a season that Max Chilton gave us. So nothing to write home about.

[idfx]

bhall wrote: Ferrari is, by far, the highest-profile F1 team in America - as a brief aside, it wouldn't surprise me if 1 out of 3 people here have never even heard of Renault - and America is, by far, Ferrari's largest market. It only makes sense then for the two to leverage the position of the other. Haas Automation will get worldwide exposure, and Montezemolo can realize his long-held vision of a Ferrari run by an American team with an American driver.

True.
A business strategy. ferrari <-> America.

[Richard]

@bhall - The issue is that using established teams and personnel takes 5 years to become a winning team. Every time they say they're going to use home grown talent they'll be extending that time line because they'll have less F1 specific experience.

A technology partner will help but the Red Bull and Torro Rosso scenario means the degree of transfer is limited, they'll still have to design a large proportion of the car themselves.

Let's see who they employ, if they can poach staff in the same way that RB and Mercedes built their teams then 5 years might be possible. If they have too many people without F1 experience then the chances of success will diminish.

[turbof1]

@bhall - The issue is that using established teams and personnel takes 5 years to become a winning team. Every time they say they're going to use home grown talent they'll be extending that time line because they'll have less F1 specific experience.

A technology partner will help but the Red Bull and Torro Rosso scenario means the degree of transfer is limited, they'll still have to design a large proportion of the car themselves.

Let's see who they employ, if they can poach staff in the same way that RB and Mercedes built their teams then 5 years might be possible. If they have too many people without F1 experience then the chances of success will diminish.

Technology transfer is very limited by rules. There are talks about allowing customer chassis'. Not having to design a chassis already cuts away in needed expertise.

That being said:
-It took Mercedes 5 years to evolve from a team which had very decent tools but not not the right expertise, to go to a dominant team. It took them virtually unlimited resources and attracting huge amounts of expertise and know-how.

-It took Marussia and Caterham 5 years to evolve from the back of the field to still the back of the field, only with a increased gap instead of atleast decreasing it.

Those teams didn't have a "let's do it our own stubborn and patriotic way" like Haas. Chances are Haas will not even make the grid with that attitude.

[bhall]

Again, don't read the summaries of Haas' statements, read the statements themselves. What he's actually saying isn't nearly as unrealistic as what's being portrayed. I think the nationalist angle is being blown out of proportion in order to generate pages clicks and whatnot, the same reason why the word "American" is in the title of this thread. It's really quite irrelevant.

Besides, anyone doing this in true American fashion would simply buy the whole series on credit and then impose his will with the help of purchased allied support. That's how we roll.

Appendix 6 of the Sporting Regulations lays out the components for which each competitor is responsible. Teams can buy an entire chassis from a third party, provided no other team uses that chassis, and the third party source isn't also a competitor in Formula One.

If the rules aren't relaxed to allow customer cars, I imagine Haas will use Dallara to provide the chassis and Ferrari to provide both the powertrain and technical support, in much the same way Force India uses McLaren for technical support and Caterham uses Red Bull Racing.

[Richard]

Indeed, the RB/TR scenario lead to much tighter restrictions on customer teams. So Haas will need to build a team that can stand on its own feet.

As for the perceived belligerence about American is best, I suspect he’s talking to 2 audiences. On one hand he’s got the opportunity to be the only team that can tap into patriotic fervour in the richest country in the world, so he needs to slap a stars and stripes on everything to get that cash. On the other he talks about needing to find partners to bring in relevant expertise, that would infer that he needs to buy european staff.

So let’s see where he strikes the balance. Bear in mind the excitement over the Silver Arrows winning races for the first time in decades. That conveniently skips over the fact that the same team were WDC and WCC a few years ago. So if Merc managed to say a rebadged team in Brackley was the return of the Silver Arrows, then it isn’t such a problem to have a US branded team on the grid.

The question is who would be the technology partner? Ferrari would be a good commercial tie in, so they could supply engine and gearbox. Another option is that Honda really ought to supply more than one team and a Japanese partner might help open up Pacific markets for Haas.

I’m also thinking their European sporting base could build on the foundations of an established team. Force India seem to have perpetual rumours about being up for sale? I’m also thinking Sauber have shown themselves to be open to rebranding in the past.

So then we have a scenario of a truly global enterprise headquartered in the US, with Japanese technology and Swiss expertise taking on the old toffs and aristocrats in rural England and Piedmont. It’s starting to sound like the plot for Austin Powers – the toffs won in that case!

[FW17]

Could be Haas Chrysler

[Rusty34]

Haas is already very successful with four full time NASCAR teams so why is it so difficult to believe he will eventually become successful in F1? You folks like to make light of NASCAR but you should recall Red Bull tried with a team based here in the US and failed,