Haas - American team in F1

[stephenwh]

I just find it amazing that it is somehow controversial to call F1 the top series in the world on a website dedicated to F1. I mean if the truth brings out so much ire, it obviously is not about the truth, but about those who cannot deal with the truth.

To me it just means that some people have become so cynical and jaded that they can't deal with the present, and therefore the changes that F1 has had to go through to survive and thrive, and to keep it's leadership position.

So glad that I can enjoy my favorite sport with out cynicism and rose tinted glasses for the past coloring my experience. Thank goodness for television and enthusiastic television announcers, thank goodness for the right to be a "fanboy" in your own living room.

This thread is about an American team joining the grid, and I am an American. Excuse me for having some enthusiasm...but that is the way of the internet, for anything that can be perceived as exciting and positive, there will always be the cynicism police there to bring their negativity to the conversation and start calling you a fanboy, or to claim that what you are into is "dead".

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Just as Formula One projects the absurd notion that it represents the pinnacle of motorsports, NASCAR carefully cultivates its image as a home grown, aw shucks, good ol' boy organization. But peel back that folksy veneer and you get quite a different picture.

Popular in the US, but not a global sport at all. F1 is.

I would like to question F1's popularity outside of europe, it has failed spectacularly in all new markets it has tried, and the once that have some semblance of success will surely have a similar or larger success for NASCAR.

The reason f1 moved out of europe? coz europe is broke thankfully NASCAR does not have that issue, hence there is no need for them to be global.

Outside the US nobody is interested in NASCAR, that's why it isn't global.

[Lycoming]

There used to be a stock car racing series in the UK called "ASCAR". It wasn't terribly popular and no longer exists in its original form with it's original (hilarious) name, but it's false to say that nobody is interested in NASCAR outside of the US.

[Moxie]

Wow!!!

I understand that the moderators would like to keep the topics more or less in line with the original thread starter. However, the truth about conversations is that they do drift, and this one has drifted a lot. My post was right in there with the current conversation, and was a direct response to the post above it. There was certainly nothing offensive or controversial about my post. Frankly, I'm kind of ticked it was removed. If you want to remove the whole formula one is elitist conversation from the thread, then so be it. Instead you removed my post, and at least one other post, and left the rest of the conversation in place. Seems as if formula one is not the only elitist around here.

[GitanesBlondes]

If Gene Haas really wants exposure for Haas Automation, he could save himself a bundle of money by not participating in F1, and using the money to open up new avenues. If F1's exposure was so worthwhile, you'd see sponsors beating the door down to get in, but let's be honest, most sponsors don't want to waste their money on the whole thing anymore.

[bhall]

There used to be a stock car racing series in the UK called "ASCAR". It wasn't terribly popular and no longer exists in its original form with it's original (hilarious) name, but it's false to say that nobody is interested in NASCAR outside of the US.

That's a joke, right? ASCAR?

[strad]

Moxie, ,,

Seems as if formula one is not the only elitist around here.

See...there is always something we can agree on.

[Cam]

F1 failure in new markets down to FOM interest in places with most money but no significance motorsport interest. No motorsport series can ever be successful in those places, certainly not NASCAR.

NASCAR never really aimed to be an international series, they know their place.

Agreed! Why? Let's have a look at some of the brands that sponsor NASCAR. This will give us some insights into the audience they are targeting.

• Bush's Baked Beans
• Air Force
• Dr Pepper/Burger King
• M&M's/Skittles/Snickers/Double Mint Gum
• Cheerios
• National Guard/Diet Mountain Dew
• Subway/Kellogg's
• Budweiser
• Dollar General/The Home Depot
• Miller Lite
• Target
• McDonald's
• Taco Bell

Without intending to offend, what demographic buys that stuff? Do we see a pattern?

Also, countries such as China might take umbridge allowing race cars sponsored by the US Air Force in front of their people.

[tok-tokkie]

Wow!!!

I understand that the moderators would like to keep the topics more or less in line with the original thread starter. However, the truth about conversations is that they do drift, and this one has drifted a lot. My post was right in there with the current conversation, and was a direct response to the post above it. There was certainly nothing offensive or controversial about my post. Frankly, I'm kind of ticked it was removed. If you want to remove the whole formula one is elitist conversation from the thread, then so be it. Instead you removed my post, and at least one other post, and left the rest of the conversation in place. Seems as if formula one is not the only elitist around here.

Is it not because your post got 2 downvotes? I thought that made them invisible unless you elect that they be shown. I am uncertain about this as there was a time when it was shown where these hidden posts were in the thread.

[Jersey Tom]

Well, let's clear up some misinformation here.

Finding mechanics, race engineers, strategist etc to work on F1 from NASCAR is not an issue, it is finding designers from nascar to do a f1 package which is next to impossible (or not advisable to try)

Have to call BS on this given how many NASCAR engineers have previous F1 experience. There are a lot.

Very little, if any, telemetry is used in NASCAR.

Flat out wrong.

[F1] is the pinnacle because of prestige, it's history, and the money involved. It is the pinnacle because getting to F1 is the ultimate for the vast majority of race car drivers worldwide. [...]

"Every driver on the planet wants to get to F1 and there are only 22 seats." - Simona de Silvestro

In my experience the only people who think F1 is "pinnacle of everything" are F1 fans - which is fine, and to be expected. Pinnacle of open wheel circuit racing? Sure. But there are thousands of racecar drivers in stock car racing, drag racing, rally, endurance, etc. who have no interest in going F1 or that being the final stop on their career.

And outside of drivers, in my experience I've seen way more engineers come from F1 to NASCAR (Hell I can think of a half dozen I know personally) than go from NASCAR to F1 (none come to mind). I've had guys come over from Europe and look at a race shop here and be blown away that the scale is larger than several F1 teams combined.

NASCAR never really aimed to be an international series, they know their place.

Don't confuse "NASCAR" - the sanctioning body - with an individual series like Sprint Cup or Nationwide, etc. Maybe a subtle point, but NASCAR does have other smaller series which run outside of the United States and in Europe.

Why? Let's have a look at some of the brands that sponsor NASCAR. This will give us some insights into the audience they are targeting.

• Bush's Baked Beans
• Air Force
• Dr Pepper/Burger King
• M&M's/Skittles/Snickers/Double Mint Gum
• Cheerios
• National Guard/Diet Mountain Dew
• Subway/Kellogg's
• Budweiser
• Dollar General/The Home Depot
• Miller Lite
• Target
• McDonald's
• Taco Bell

Some others which you've conveniently left off your list include:

• Shell
• SKF
• Bosch
• Gulfstream
• Mazak
• PTC
• Mclaren Electronic Systems
• Mahle
• Siemens
• FedEx
• Ingersoll Rand
• Sandvik Coromant
• Dow
• Dupont
• Okuma
• Cessna

Just making the point that you can cherry pick your list to imply whatever you want.

[Moxie]

And now there is a post by CAM that also addresses the marketing strategy of NASCAR??? No offense meant to Cam. His post actually ties in with my post that discussed NASCAR the company its their strategy of targeting multiple markets, including ventures into sports car racing, the European market and even internet gaming/racing. People down voted the post because they did not agree!!! Then a moderator went further and removed the post entirely. There was no good reason to do that.

I reiterate: down votes are childish!!!

Now I really don't want to type it again, so I will summarize my thoughts that were unceremoniously censored.

First we must get more specific in our language. We all call the stock cars that race the Daytona 500 NASCAR, but they are really the "NASCAR Sprint Cup Series." NASCAR the company has involvement in many racing series. The application the this conversation is that they also have relationships with sports car racing (Grand Am I am unsure about Tudor), and a European racing series (Euroseries).

To the comment that NASCAR "knows its place," I agreed, and pointed out that more importantly it knows it's markets (tie in with Cam). Rather than take the elitist approach and pretend that it's single brand is the end all and be all of motor racing, NASCAR respects the variety among its spectators and works to provide them with the entertainment they desire. In contrast, Mr.E has fostered an elitist attitude about F1, but at the same time he has failed to respect the spectators who pay to see the advertising platform he markets.

I went on to predict, that in time NASCAR may overtake F1, but I was not referring to stock cars in North Carolina overtaking carbon fibre single seaters. I meant that as NASCAR continues to expand, it will acquire/create (other financial arrangement?) motor racing series (maybe even a single seater series) that the spectators enjoy, drawing their attention away from the problem riddled, uncompetitive F1.

[Moxie]

Well, let's clear up some misinformation here.

Very little, if any, telemetry is used in NASCAR.

Flat out wrong.

I won't pretend to be an expert on just how much telemetry is used in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series. My information comes from an interview with Juan Pablo Montoya in which he compared the experience of driving F1 vs Sprint Cup.

[Jersey Tom]

My information comes from an interview with Juan Pablo Montoya in which he compared the experience of driving F1 vs Sprint Cup.

Live streaming data off the car during a race (truly telemetry)? No, there's none of that. Though many people incorrectly use the word telemetry interchangeably with data acquisition. During testing you can stream as much live data as you want, just as much as you'd find in any other race series. And during a race weekend you can still pull the data you're allowed to log off the car.

Now with all that said, thread is starting to digress.

I still think the two ultimate questions are (a) can they make the grid - now 2016 - and (b) can they be successful.

The first - I'm not entirely sure about - but fundamentally it's not impossible. Do I care either way? Not really. But if they can make it to the events and race, I feel like the 2nd item is a given - because really the question is how do you measure success?

I'd make the argument that just showing up and completing a season would be a huge success given how few people expect even that much (as this thread illustrates). Would be no worse than all the current F1 teams who don't score points or DNF. If they can outdo some of the bottom tier European teams that'd be solid in my book, for a startup organization.

Winning WDC's or WCC's completely out of the question in the near term. Extremely unlikely in general even down the road unless they really firmly plant themselves for 10+ years. But again, that's not the only measure of success.

[stephenwh]

[F1] is the pinnacle because of prestige, it's history, and the money involved. It is the pinnacle because getting to F1 is the ultimate for the vast majority of race car drivers worldwide. [...]

"Every driver on the planet wants to get to F1 and there are only 22 seats." - Simona de Silvestro

In my experience the only people who think F1 is "pinnacle of everything" are F1 fans - which is fine, and to be expected. Pinnacle of open wheel circuit racing? Sure. But there are thousands of racecar drivers in stock car racing, drag racing, rally, endurance, etc. who have no interest in going F1 or that being the final stop on their career.

I'm going to have to disagree. You go to F1 while you are still young, then other series become your final stop. For a lot of drivers, unfortunately, the window to go to F1 closes, and they do something else, or they never get the chance in the first place but that is simply about the exclusive nature of Formula One. Nature of the beast. That does not then mean F1 isn't what it is. *shrug* I mean there is no chance that JV would ever get to race at Monaco at his age, but he just got a chance to race at Indy again. That pretty much says it all. If you think that through, it simply means in order to be in F1 you need to be young and at the top of your game, hence the top racing series in the world. I really don't understand why that statement is controversial, it's simply the reality of the racing world. *shrug*

[bhall]

[...]
That pretty much says it all. If you think that through, it simply means in order to be in F1 you need to be young and at the top of your game, hence the top racing series in the world. I really don't understand why that statement is controversial, it's simply the reality of the racing world. *shrug*

I can think of several drivers in F1 right now who are only there because they have substantial support. Pastor Maldonado, for instance, is one of the worst drivers I've ever seen behind the wheel of any car, but his $30,000,000/year in PDVSA money means he gets a spot at "the pinnacle."

Moreover, it's extremely arrogant to assume that one's own subjective assessment of anything is an objective reality that others should observe as fact.