Engine Unfreeze

[xpensive]

...
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

Xactly, opportunities will be equal for all, which is the way it should be, nobody is asking for any special treatment here, is it?

[Sevach]

If they do or don't is not going to be solved by our debate is it?
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

If Mercedes comes next year with an even bigger advantage than they have now, fair play to them and best of luck to the rest in trying to catch up.

But at least they will have a chance to try and catch up, instead of writing off the season and waiting for next year.

Can you imagine 2009 with a diffuser freeze?

[turbof1]

...
"A necessity to win"? Red Bull need a merc unit to win 3 times this year?

Yes, thankfully Mercedes has had the courtesy to screw up a couple of times, but lately it seems they are totally out of reach.

As for McLaren, you don't think for a second they get the same spec engines as Mercedes?

Mclaren gets the exactly same engines, but more crucially they don't get the correct information how to use them. Like when Mercedes suddenly came up with log-like exhaust manifold, which the other Merc teams didn't knew that would be introduced.

[FoxHound]

If they do or don't is not going to be solved by our debate is it?
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

If Mercedes comes next year with an even bigger advantage than they have now, fair play to them and best of luck to the rest in trying to catch up.

But at least they will have a chance to try and catch up, instead of writing off the season and waiting for next year.

Can you imagine 2009 with a diffuser freeze?

Wait a second, we've actually had a debate similar to this before.
Renault can and have changed the design of major parts on their PU this year.
If a part can be demonstrably cheaper to produce or more reliable, it can be changed.

[ParkerArt]

The problem I have with all of the trash talking is that the combustion engines are quite similar power wise between the teams. The energy harvesting is the main area that Mercedes is crushing everyone on track. The rules cover how much energy is available to be deployed over a lap as well as how much can be recovered during braking. The difference has to be covered by the MGU-H that that is where Mercedes gains the most. At racing pace, Ferrari have to burn more fuel to be able to recover power from the turbo and Renault has issues with energy recovery too.

That being said, the fuel flow limit is the biggest limit for the ICE component. Turbo pressure isn't limited and I feel that Mercedes's larger turbocharger, water to air intercoolers and front mounted compressor are the biggest advantages they have over the field but every team 'should' have very similar top end power.

[mikeerfol]

...
"A necessity to win"? Red Bull need a merc unit to win 3 times this year?

Yes, thankfully Mercedes has had the courtesy to screw up a couple of times, but lately it seems they are totally out of reach.

As for McLaren, you don't think for a second they get the same spec engines as Mercedes?

Mclaren gets the exactly same engines, but more crucially they don't get the correct information how to use them. Like when Mercedes suddenly came up with log-like exhaust manifold, which the other Merc teams didn't knew that would be introduced.

And I'm sure the fact they're the only ones who don't use Petronas (even Lotus will switch to them next year) gives them a horsepower disadvantage.

[dans79]

...
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

Xactly, opportunities will be equal for all, which is the way it should be, nobody is asking for any special treatment here, is it?

asking for the rules to change because you are behind is asking for special treatment. The fact that everyone can make changes doesn't change that fact.

[SectorOne]

Let´s just see what will happen first now between the seasons. It could very well be that the gap closes right up and an unfreeze would just be pouring money into a black hole with extremely little return since they are all pretty much optimized for the moment.

[turbof1]

...
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

Xactly, opportunities will be equal for all, which is the way it should be, nobody is asking for any special treatment here, is it?

asking for the rules to change because you are behind is asking for special treatment. The fact that everyone can make changes doesn't change that fact.

Well, how about introducing it one development cycle later? They way it looks now anyway, is that'll only get introduced by 2016. I think that's a big enough period inbetween to not be a special treatment.

[GitanesBlondes]

Tell me Gitanes, did a 1999 V10...as glorious as it was, have a Hybrid recuperation system allied to KERS with batteries, only allowed to change 6 particular components of any singular change within a season, all the while adhering to the fuel consumption of 100kg limit per race?

Don't try and use a red herring here Fox.

Stick to answering the question that was asked.

Again, in the long haul, if you allow for unlimited engine use per season, what is going to have a lower cost per unit, 5 engines, or 50 engines?

[GitanesBlondes]

If they do or don't is not going to be solved by our debate is it?
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

If Mercedes comes next year with an even bigger advantage than they have now, fair play to them and best of luck to the rest in trying to catch up.

But at least they will have a chance to try and catch up, instead of writing off the season and waiting for next year.

Can you imagine 2009 with a diffuser freeze?

Wait a second, we've actually had a debate similar to this before.
Renault can and have changed the design of major parts on their PU this year.
If a part can be demonstrably cheaper to produce or more reliable, it can be changed.

Renault really changed the design of major parts on their PU?

When did this happen?

[FoxHound]

And I'm sure the fact they're the only ones who don't use Petronas (even Lotus will switch to them next year) gives them a horsepower disadvantage.

Good point, and also one that has big repercussions on the entire PU performance.

[FoxHound]

Stick to answering the question that was asked.

You asked the question after making the statement.

Your statement is that engines were cheaper to produce in the halcyon days of the V10 citing Mario Illien as a source.

Now making the kind of assumptions you've made to conclude that, you'd need to forget about any of the current rules.

Like making an engine last roughly 4 GP weekends or 1600kms. Including free practice and qualifying.

How much you think it costs to build an engine like that versus one that only has to do 390kms?

Or having to add kers/hers?

Few hundred million just in that alone.

So when you compare an apple, with a pear... and ask questions...I'm gonna peel this banana and show you how silly it is to compare costings.

[GitanesBlondes]

Stick to answering the question that was asked.

You asked the question after making the statement.

Your statement is that engines were cheaper to produce in the halcyon days of the V10 citing Mario Illien as a source.

Now making the kind of assumptions you've made to conclude that, you'd need to forget about any of the current rules.

Like making an engine last roughly 4 GP weekends or 1600kms. Including free practice and qualifying.

How much you think it costs to build an engine like that versus one that only has to do 390kms?

Or having to add kers/hers?

Few hundred million just in that alone.

So when you compare an apple, with a pear... and ask questions...I'm gonna peel this banana and show you how silly it is to compare costings.

Again, I'm not concerned about total costs per year of engines or anything of that nature.

It's a simple question to answer, so stop trying to equivocate and answer it.

Is the cost per unit less to build 5 engines, or is it less to build 50?

[FoxHound]

Explain your criteria for cost please Gitanes.

No point asking a question when 50 engines are budgeted for a season or 5. If 5 engines cost the same as 50 for an entire season, and they both have the same budget, then they are both equally viable.

See my point?

But to further my point as I have ungraciously bludgeoned thus far, developmental costs should be associated with build cost as both serve the same end.