Engine Unfreeze

[bhall II]

This is where it comes to turbo, instead of trying to dictate every bit of the construction of the engines, the formula should have been set down as a 1.6L V6 single turbo unit with the ERS and a flow rate of xx, everything else is up to the manufacturers. That would have been the sensible approach if you're looking for real world relevance as design philosophies vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on what it is they're looking for out of the engine relative to their customer vehicles.

[...]

You can see some surprising results from that, too. When Le Mans opened up the regulations for this year, with an emphasis on efficiency by virtue of the ACO's new ERS "formula," Toyota actually increased the displacement of its NA V8 to 3.7L from 3.5L and said 4.0L would have been ideal for a clean-sheet design.

Oh, how I wish the ACO ran Formula One.

[flyboy2160]

This is where it comes to turbo, instead of trying to dictate every bit of the construction of the engines, the formula should have been set down as a 1.6L V6 single turbo unit with the ERS and a flow rate of xx, everything else is up to the manufacturers. That would have been the sensible approach if you're looking for real world relevance as design philosophies vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on what it is they're looking for out of the engine relative to their customer vehicles.

[...]

You can see some surprising results from that, too. When Le Mans opened up the regulations for this year, with an emphasis on efficiency by virtue of the ACO's new ERS "formula," Toyota actually increased the displacement of its NA V8 to 3.7L from 3.5L and said 4.0L would have been ideal for a clean-sheet design.

Oh, how I wish the ACO ran Formula One.

Also noteworthy is even more manufacturers entering under these more free engine regulations. I think that counters the sky-is-falling naysayers about F1 engine regulation freedom who claim that the manufacturers won't enter a more free regulation system.

[R_Redding]

Slightly OT ..but I'd like to know if possible..


The current engine manufacturers are on the FIAs 5 year plan.

When Honda join...will they have a 5yr plan of their own,or be on year 2 of 5 as per the others?.

And if Porsche etc joined in 2020... would they have 5yrs or 0 years.

Rob

[djos]

The EBD problem was that one side used cold blowing, the other used hot blowing. The engine regs prevented engine suppliers from updating their engines to switch from one to the other.

I was under the impression that hot blowing as used by Mercedes was the more effective off the two methods, Renault was using cold blowing which had the advantage of being more fuel efficient.

[xpensive]

...
As for McLaren, you don't think for a second they get the same spec engines as Mercedes?

Mclaren gets the exactly same engines, but more crucially they don't get the correct information how to use them.
...

But look at McLaren's sudden and radical improvement this weekend, with Jenson a close fourth on the grid, could it possibly have something to do with Ron's bitching the other day about McLaren being given inferior MHPE PU's this season?

Wonder how Lotus feels now, taking over McLaren's delivery in 2015?

[bhall II]

There seem to be a number of arguments getting jumbled up:

• Unfreezing the engine regs would allow other teams to catch up because Merc is too dominant this season. Unlike the good old days when other teams could catch up. Except Merc's win ratio this year is less than McLaren 88, Ferrari in 02 & 04. It is on par with McLaren in 84 and Williams 96.
• A spec series leads to a bunched field and open regs lead to a spread out field. The contradiction is that mid-season development would close the field so it'd be more like a spec series. Yes, in past decades open regs lead to huge diversity, however the technology (aero,PU, simulation, analysis, production turnaround, etc) is much more mature so all teams rapidly converge to the optimum performance. An unfreeze would simply lead to more rapid convergence, less divergence, more boring racing.
• Costs - An engine supplier with 4 teams, 2 drivers and 6 units per driver can produce 48 identical units per year. That is cheaper than open regs which would lead to say 12 units per driver with 96 units with subtly different specs . Yes cost per unit might go down, but total cost goes up.

[...]

I'm a bit confused here by your statements. (Or was that the point?)

- I think there's a huge difference between teams who, for whatever reason, have found themselves unable to catch up to a dominant rival throughout the course of a season, like in every previous instance when one team has been way ahead, and teams who are barred from even trying to catch up. The former only feels futile; the latter actually is.

- I can't imagine anything more boring than knowing the outcome of every race months in advance. We all knew how this season's Championship was going to shake out the moment the chequered flag dropped in Australia.

Moreover, a spread field inherently means only one team is truly competitive. Hence, the spread. A bunched field, on the other hand, means many teams are competitive. So, I fail to see how a widespread lack of competitiveness in the sport is more boring than the alternative.

- Admittedly, I haven't been paying close attention to rumors floating around, but I haven't read anything that indicates a mid-season defrost would negate the restriction on the number of PUs allowed for each driver. My understanding is that the total number would still be capped, just that the last one wouldn't necessarily have to be the same spec as the first one.

Also noteworthy is even more manufacturers entering under these more free engine regulations. I think that counters the sky-is-falling naysayers about F1 engine regulation freedom who claim that the manufacturers won't enter a more free regulation system.

Yeah, Le Mans is so attractive for manufacturers these days that Volkswagen entered twice!

[bhall II]

Mercedes oppose move to free up engine development

(Reuters) - Dominant Mercedes plan to block an attempt by Formula One rivals to relax the rules and allow engine development during the course of next season.

The engine rules are currently 'frozen' in-season to keep costs down after the introduction of costly new V6 turbo hybrid power units this year.

Renault-powered rivals Red Bull, dethroned by Mercedes as constructors' champions last weekend, and Ferrari want the rules relaxed to allow in-season development that might give them a chance to close the gap.

Mercedes motorsport head Toto Wolff told reporters in Russia last weekend that his team had already voted against the proposal in a strategy group meeting and would do so again when the matter goes to a Formula One commission meeting.

To be incorporated into the 2015 rules, there must be unanimous agreement.

"I don't think we will change our mind in the next month, whenever the commission meeting is going to take place," said Wolff, who added that any relaxation would only increase costs.

He said there was also every chance the performance gap would remain the same, if not grow larger, with Mercedes also pushing hard to improve their engine.

Mercedes have won 13 of 16 races so far, with nine one-two finishes. They will be supplying three teams next year in addition to their own.

"We were asked to guarantee supply of engines at the same specification, at the same time for all the customers at the same price," said Wolff. "And we can't supply them at the same time if we are having in-season development.

"It's different for Honda, which has one customer only, it's different to Ferrari and different for Renault again.

"You are spending considerably more and every other argument is just because they (rival manufacturers) don't think they are where they should be."

TRUE PERFORMANCE

To emphasise the domination of the Mercedes engine, Germany's Nico Rosberg went from last to second in Sunday's race at Sochi while the top five cars were all Mercedes-powered.

"Mercedes' true performance is they can drive through the field, and I think it's too out of kilter," commented Red Bull principal Christian Horner.

"This technology is still quite raw. Mercedes shouldn't be afraid of competition. They're doing a super job but I think it's healthy for F1 that Ferrari, Honda and Renault should have the ability to close that gap, otherwise we'll end up in a very stagnant position."

Williams head of vehicle performance Rob Smedley, whose team uses Mercedes engines, agreed with Wolff.

"Yes, Mercedes have got the march on the manufacturers. But if we open up the engine regulations, Mercedes aren't going to sit still," he told reporters.

"Mercedes are going to do an awful lot of work and put an awful lot of investment into this current generation of power unit and come out with something that is much bigger, better and stronger – as will Renault, as will Ferrari.

"Nobody will move forward or backward. We'll end up where we are.... and what Formula One doesn't need right at this moment in time is that everybody incurs a huge amount of cost for no benefit to the show."

[Pierce89]

Merc is full of BS. I'm pretty sure most in f1 know that the closer you are to the optimum the harder it is to finf gains. Merc knows they've already gotten all the low hanging fruit, so now they're just trying to block the others from the tree.

[xpensive]

Merc is full of BS. I'm pretty sure most in f1 know that the closer you are to the optimum the harder it is to finf gains. Merc knows they've already gotten all the low hanging fruit, so now they're just trying to block the others from the tree.

Xactly Pierce, I just posted this on the Honda thread;

I'm not so sure, with the fuel flow limit and the 160 Hp MGU-K, there is a cap on how far you can develop these PUs,
the ERS systems are limited to deliver those 160 Hp anywhere around the track, while the ICE can only be improved
in power by increasing its efficiency, which is very likely to be marginal.

I suspect that Mercedes is well aware of this, that they are already maxed out, why they are so against an unfreeze.

[Juzh]

"Mercedes are going to do an awful lot of work and put an awful lot of investment into this current generation of power unit and come out with something that is much bigger, better and stronger – as will Renault, as will Ferrari.

"Nobody will move forward or backward. We'll end up where we are.... and what Formula One doesn't need right at this moment in time is that everybody incurs a huge amount of cost for no benefit to the show."

This statement coming from Smedley of all people has to be one THE biggest pile of crap i've seen this year in F1, rivalling abu double.

So why didn't they just freeze aero regs as well and be done with it?

[dans79]

Merc is full of BS. I'm pretty sure most in f1 know that the closer you are to the optimum the harder it is to finf gains. Merc knows they've already gotten all the low hanging fruit, so now they're just trying to block the others from the tree.

They earned the advantage they got fair and square. As usual though, f1 is full of butt hurt whiners who want the rules changed. Any one would block the competition getting a free handout.

[CHT]

If engine development remain freeze will it be possible for team like Renault to quit F1 and then rejoin using Nissan engine? or Ferrari quiting and rejoin using Maseratti.

[bhall II]

They earned the advantage they got fair and square. As usual though, f1 is full of butt hurt whiners who want the rules changed. Any one would block the competition getting a free handout.

Yeah, butthurt whiners who complain when they perceive inequality, or when they're taken to task for their actions, or if their self-interests are threatened are annoying.

[prince]

They earned the advantage they got fair and square. As usual though, f1 is full of butt hurt whiners who want the rules changed. Any one would block the competition getting a free handout.

Yeah, butthurt whiners who complain when they perceive inequality, or when they're taken to task for their actions, or if their self-interests are threatened are annoying.

They difference here between Whiners and Winners is the end result of whining.

[Richard]

I'm really surprised people get so personal and vindictive about Merc's position. Every team in F1 whinges about their competitors while rebutting any complaints about themselves.

F1 isn't a charity, its a ruthless competition where teams win as a result of political means as much as technical means. Yes the engine freeze has locked in a competitive advantage for Merc, but don't blame them for exploiting that advantage. For example, we didn't see Brawn GP say "don't worry dear, we know our car was too fast in testing so we'll forfeit the DDD", or RB saying "poor didums, our EBD blowing is too effective, we'll not use in the next race".