Engine Unfreeze

[diffuser]

@ Turbo,

So who pays the bill for the additional costs?

I'm gonna presume that Ferrari will pay for the update themselves for themselves but try and not give the update away to the customer cars. I guess they'd have an option to buy it.

On the other hand, if I was Sauber, I'd say you better include that update in the cost of the engine or you can take the update and PU and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[bonjon1979]

@ Turbo,

So who pays the bill for the additional costs?

I'm gonna presume that Ferrari will pay for the update themselves for themselves but try and not give the update away to the customer cars. I guess they'd have an option to buy it.

On the other hand, if I was Sauber, I'd say you better include that update in the cost of the engine or you can take the update and PU and shove it where the sun don't shine.

I think it's enshrined in the rules that customer teams have to get the same engines as works teams. But who gives a damn about what the rules are, just change them. The teams are down to 4 power units for the whole season next year. So engines won't/can't be constantly updated. Maybe they'll get a new design from an agreed mid point but first half of the season will have to be run with frozen engines. Not least because each driver has to make the engine they currently have in the car last for 5 races.

[turbof1]

@ Turbo,

So who pays the bill for the additional costs?

The manufacturers themselves; they are forced to give customer teams the same updates basicilly for free since they have to comply with the rules.

[FoxHound]

@Turbo and Ben

Therefore it is easy to see why Mercedes are using the costings as a defence against total PU freedom.
If they spend 100s of millions developing the unit on the premise it is going to be gradually frozen, whats the point of spending this, then have to spend more to try and eke out another advantage?
We need more competition, but what should happen is that Mercedes should be frozen in specific areas and Renault and Ferrari allowed the gradual changes until they are in the same bracket as Mercedes PU's. It's a common sense approach that Mercedes would probably go for over the proposed alternative.

Allowing a total defrost is guaranteed one thing....More cost.
It does not guarantee performance equilibrium.

And Mercedes are now going to have to spend more to supply teams their engines, and not allowed to charge more for it.

Maybe frozen rules should not exist at all, for the idiotic situations that arise from them!

[turbof1]

@Turbo and Ben

Therefore it is easy to see why Mercedes are using the costings as a defence against total PU freedom.
If they spend 100s of millions developing the unit on the premise it is going to be gradually frozen, whats the point of spending this, then have to spend more to try and eke out another advantage?
We need more competition, but what should happen is that Mercedes should be frozen in specific areas and Renault and Ferrari allowed the gradual changes until they are in the same bracket as Mercedes PU's. It's a common sense approach that Mercedes would probably go for over the proposed alternative.

Allowing a total defrost is guaranteed one thing....More cost.
It does not guarantee performance equilibrium.

And Mercedes are now going to have to spend more to supply teams their engines, and not allowed to charge more for it.

Maybe frozen rules should not exist at all, for the idiotic situations that arise from them!

I don't disagree that it'll cost more. It'll cerainly cost more; however I don't believe for one second Mercedes will be bothered at all with the cost. They spend virtual unlimited resources to be dominant in F1; let's say the plans currently on table raise the budget for the PUs with 40m. Mercedes will just double that to make sure they keep their performance check on the others.

Again, Renault and Ferrari argueing an engine unfreeze is good for the sport because it allows more competition and Mercedes argueing it is bad for the sport since it raises the cost, means nothing. None are interested in the good of the sport, all are interested in a single and the same question: how can I gain an advantage?

Maybe frozen rules should not exist at all, for the idiotic situations that arise from them!

That's a very valid conclusion.

[Facts Only]

Merc having virtually unlimited spending is a complete myth and far from the truth. Note that HPP and MGP have both had large culls of contract staff over the last few years to bring costs back under control, they are definitely running to a budget.
When Mercedes first came back they were trying to run the team on a midfield budget plus sponsorship deals, this was then ramped up to an effort for the 2014 season where resource was focused on the understanding that it would then taper off once the PU was homologated and the rules would stabilise. HPP have reduced staff numbers since the PU homologation earlier in the year.

Every budget and extra money request has to go through the Daimler board who in turn have to please shareholders, and a unionised german workforce.

Can you imagine Toto Wolf and Andy Cowell going to the board with a request to unfreeze the engines:

Merc Board: "whats this engine unfreeze then"
Andy/Toto: "well the other teams want to free up engine development"
Merc Board: "What will that mean"
Andy/Toto: "well we will have to ramp up developmet siginifcantly and will need a bigger budget"
Merc Board: "Can you increase the costs to the customers to cover this?"
Andy/Toto: "Not really the contracts have been signed based on the current rules"
Merc Board: "So you'll need more money then, I assume it will give us more adavntage though?"
Andy/Toto: "well it will likely cut our advantage"
Merc Board: "So if we vote yes to this we will have to spend more money to win less?"
Andy/Toto: "Ummmm, yes"
Merc Board: "Well you better vote no then hadn't you! And tell Claire, Gerard and Vijay to vote no as well!"

[diffuser]

Merc having virtually unlimited spending is a complete myth and far from the truth. Note that HPP and MGP have both had large culls of contract staff over the last few years to bring costs back under control, they are definitely running to a budget.
When Mercedes first came back they were trying to run the team on a midfield budget plus sponsorship deals, this was then ramped up to an effort for the 2014 season where resource was focused on the understanding that it would then taper off once the PU was homologated and the rules would stabilise. HPP have reduced staff numbers since the PU homologation earlier in the year.

Every budget and extra money request has to go through the Daimler board who in turn have to please shareholders, and a unionised german workforce.

Can you imagine Toto Wolf and Andy Cowell going to the board with a request to unfreeze the engines:

Merc Board: "whats this engine unfreeze then"
Andy/Toto: "well the other teams want to free up engine development"
Merc Board: "What will that mean"
Andy/Toto: "well we will have to ramp up developmet siginifcantly and will need a bigger budget"
Merc Board: "Can you increase the costs to the customers to cover this?"
Andy/Toto: "Not really the contracts have been signed based on the current rules"
Merc Board: "So you'll need more money then, I assume it will give us more adavntage though?"
Andy/Toto: "well it will likely cut our advantage"
Merc Board: "So if we vote yes to this we will have to spend more money to win less?"
Andy/Toto: "Ummmm, yes"
Merc Board: "Well you better vote no then hadn't you! And tell Claire, Gerard and Vijay to vote no as well!"

Do you really think that anybody can erase the 2 second Gap to Merc in the this one 13 point update? Does Merc really need the update?

[GitanesBlondes]

I feel the engine freeze bickering is why F1 should be streamlining the technical regulations. Instead of forcing everyone into a funnel, open it up a bit. It takes away the ability to whine about locked in advantages. Nothing would be stopping anyone from pursuing improvements other than money. Teams are going to spend whatever they can spend whether the budget is half a billion or 5 million. It'll all be spent one way or another. You also give smaller teams a chance to focus on trying to find ideas that can help them. Small teams can't improve because the formula is set so you can only refine ideas which requires large sums of money to do. Reducing aerodynamic wings should have been the focus. Forever changing car design so the track gets narrower and narrower with each formula change has ensured aerodynamics occupy the bulk of the focus.

[dans79]

I feel the engine freeze bickering is why F1 should be streamlining the technical regulations. Instead of forcing everyone into a funnel, open it up a bit. It takes away the ability to whine about locked in advantages. Nothing would be stopping anyone from pursuing improvements other than money. Teams are going to spend whatever they can spend whether the budget is half a billion or 5 million. It'll all be spent one way or another. You also give smaller teams a chance to focus on trying to find ideas that can help them. Small teams can't improve because the formula is set so you can only refine ideas which requires large sums of money to do. Reducing aerodynamic wings should have been the focus. Forever changing car design so the track gets narrower and narrower with each formula change has ensured aerodynamics occupy the bulk of the focus.

The only issue is that the low brow fans don't really want this either, they want lots of passing, and wide open rules usually lead to even greater discrepancies in car performance.

for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Canadian_Grand_Prix

[Richard]

Teams are going to spend whatever they can spend whether the budget is half a billion or 5 million. It'll all be spent one way or another.

The only issue is that the low brow fans don't really want this either, they want lots of passing, and wide open rules usually lead to even greater discrepancies in car performance.

I think those two points sum up F1's predicament in a nutshell. Fans want radically different cars, fans want overtaking, fans want the excitement of 30 years ago when most cars failed to finish. However teams fear letting another teams jump ahead with a radical idea*, teams spend as much as they can to ensure the reliability of the 6 sigma world with an emphasis on professionalism to avoid mistakes.

* - We saw this in the Overtaking Working Group. It seems a lot of the debate in the OWG revolved around fear of someone gaining advantage. That led to torturous regs which resulted in the DD loophole. We've seen the same with the engine regs attempting to tie every manufacturer to near identical spec engines.

[GitanesBlondes]

Teams are going to spend whatever they can spend whether the budget is half a billion or 5 million. It'll all be spent one way or another.

The only issue is that the low brow fans don't really want this either, they want lots of passing, and wide open rules usually lead to even greater discrepancies in car performance.

I think those two points sum up F1's predicament in a nutshell. Fans want radically different cars, fans want overtaking, fans want the excitement of 30 years ago when most cars failed to finish. However teams fear letting another teams jump ahead with a radical idea*, teams spend as much as they can to ensure the reliability of the 6 sigma world with an emphasis on professionalism to avoid mistakes.

* - We saw this in the Overtaking Working Group. It seems a lot of the debate in the OWG revolved around fear of someone gaining advantage. That led to torturous regs which resulted in the DD loophole. We've seen the same with the engine regs attempting to tie every manufacturer to near identical spec engines.

Of course it also begs the question of what professional sport allows the participants/teams to dictate the rules?

Granted motor racing is unique to most sports because the technical nature separates it from ball sports, and other athletic endeavours out there, so some input is needed....but to allow them involvement in the actual rule making process is foolishness to no end. You solicit opinions, and then parse it out independent of the teams and set down the rules.

It's the equivalent of letting the fox decide when he wants in on the hen house.

"Oh, you want to raid the hen house at 8PM tonight? I'll be sure to be out running errands so you have your pick."

[Mattyw]

To be fair, i havent really followed this unfreeze in too much detail so forgive my ignorance here but...

If there is an unfreeze, ferrari and renault make 2 steps forward, surely merc will just make 2 steps forward also?

So the end gain is no gap difference, just loads of money spent?

Or is it the case that ferrari and renault will makes the changes to the areas mercedes have effectively done such a good job they have exhausted (the majority) of the limit in that area so both fer and renault catch up and the end result is merc are penalised for doing such a good job in the first place?

As far as i see it, fer and renault messed up so they need to suck it up. As much as i would like to see 10 people fighting for the championship, its not mercedes fault they have done a better job

[Richard]

I was referring to professionalism of the operations and on track action. All that extra money in the big teams can only be used to minimise risk because they can't spend it on an extra race. So they have to spend it over analysing and over preparing everything with ever diminishing returns on investment. Homolgation and detailed regs were meant to allow teams to acknowledge those diminishing returns, for instance "lets not waste money on ever thinner valves stems, lets say 5mm will do".

Unfortunately the political maneuvering with the regs leads to teams tying themselves in knots trying to secure advantages/loopholes for themselves, while trying block others. To stretch the hen house metaphor:

• All teams - Lets fix the hen house floor with the intention that everyone uses the front door.
• Team A - Lets nail it shut (they want to make sure because they know they're not very good at exploiting floor vulnerabilities)
• Team B - We should properly bolt it shut (because crow bars are banned, but they have a spanner that can undo bolts)
• All - Agreed

Team B turns up in Jerez with DDD/Fduct/EBD/split turbo etc. The other teams have optimsed their designs to death so they have no room to manourvre in their designs. Adapting to the new feature requires significant redesign because everything has been squeezed to the limt, everything is so interconnected. Changing to split turbo changs the packaging, and thet requires a complete redesign of the car aerodynamics from tip to tail.

So the engine freeze may be portrayed as the bogeyman, but in reality the non-Merc can't bolt on a split turbo as an aftert thought, their cars need a complete redesign. That is where the costs go through the roof as the resulting arms race gathers pace.

[Richard]

If there is an unfreeze, ferrari and renault make 2 steps forward, surely merc will just make 2 steps forward also?

Ren and Fer hope Merc will be chasing diminishing returns. They hope to move 2 big steps forward while Merc make 2 small steps.

Merc might be agreeing to an unfreeze because they've secretly uncovered a huge step that will widen the gape even further.

It's a game of poker, who's bluffing who?

[djos]

Ren and Fer hope Merc will be chasing diminishing returns. They hope to move 2 big steps forward while Merc make 2 small steps.

Merc might be agreeing to an unfreeze because they've secretly uncovered a huge step that will widen the gape even further.

It's a game of poker, who's bluffing who?

I'd think you are correct, Merc must be damned close to the max theoretical efficiencies that can be gained from the current PU rules and Renault and Ferrari if allowed to should be able to catch up based on what they've learned running their PU's this year. I'd be very surprised if any of the teams could make a big leap past where Merc PU is now.