Engine Unfreeze

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Jonnycraig wrote:
bill shoe wrote:Mercedes, incredibly, has offered to undo some of the freeze despite no legal obligation to do so.
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
Next year they will be supplying as many teams as Ferrari and Renault combined, thus its a lot more expensive for them to provide multiple spec engines.
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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dans79 wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:
bill shoe wrote:Mercedes, incredibly, has offered to undo some of the freeze despite no legal obligation to do so.
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
Next year they will be supplying as many teams as Ferrari and Renault combined, thus its a lot more expensive for them to provide multiple spec engines.
When your budget is circa £300m per year, it's small change to produce upgrades for yourself and not your customers.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Jonnycraig wrote: ...
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
...
As it happens, some members here have suspected this to be the case, so did Ron Dennis and complained about it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Jonnycraig wrote:
When your budget is circa £300m per year, it's small change to produce upgrades for yourself and not your customers.
Bean counters don't care if it's 1m increase, it's an increase and thus must be passed on to customers.


I'm personally sick and tired of the constant tantrums of Bernie, Horner, Mattiacci, and the associated fans. They need to suck it up, and deal with the fact that they got their butts handed to them like adults.........
Last edited by dans79 on 10 Nov 2014, 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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xpensive wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: ...
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
...
As it happens, some members here have suspected this to be the case, so did Ron Dennis and complained about it.
That's just because he is to arrogant to admit his aerodynamic department is a joke right now!
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xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Do you think McLaren can't tell the difference between grip and straight line speed? :lol:
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

mrluke
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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xpensive wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: ...
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
...
As it happens, some members here have suspected this to be the case, so did Ron Dennis and complained about it.
Its been alluded to before but the agreement between the engine supplier and the team was subject to different pricing options.

The lowest option being all engines supplied at start of season and no upgrades available up to the highest option of every upgrade supplied as soon as it is available to every remaining engine.

This is very much different to a supplier deliberately giving lower powered engines to x team or retaining a particularly good one for the manufacturers favorite team.

xpensive
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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That's a new one indeed, wonder what spec Ron went for then? :lol:
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, F1 has hit the capitalist wall.

In capitalism, once you deregulate a sector invariably tends to have only three players while the other smaller potatoes are adorn figures:

* ABC-NBC-CBS
* Android-iOS-Blackberry
* ATT-Verizon-CenturyLink
* BP-Chevron-ExxonMobil
* Volkswagen-Daimler-BMW
* GM-Ford-Chrysler
* Toyota-Nissan-Honda
* IBM-Apple-Compaq
* Shem, Ham and Japhet

and now

Renault-Ferrari-Mercedes
https://sites.google.com/site/ciropabon ... enault.png
What was deregulated recently Ciro?

When F1 banned turbocharged engines at the end of '88 and switched to the 3.5L engine formula, you had the following engine manufacturers for the '89 season.

Honda
Ferrari
Cosworth
Renault
Yamaha
Judd
Ferrari

Fast forward to 1991 when you had 9...

Honda
Ferrari
Renault
Cosworth
Porsche
Yamaha
Ilmor
Judd
Lamborghini

This is all not even factoring in the different types of engines some manufacturers were offering.

The greatest variety of participation of engine suppliers in F1 came during the 3.5L formula. We have not seen that since. Once you get past all the marketing garbage about "road relevancy" --which is just fodder for the fans to feel like they are supporting something even bigger than racing-- what really drives participation is less restrictive competitive environments. Any manufacturer can spin it in whatever way they want to the boards of their companies about R&D, but it's an easier sell when you have less restrictions as you can make up whatever happy sounding stuff is necessary.

Pair more technical freedom with more inexpensive engines, and you'll get plenty of manufacturers.

You don't get them by tight restrictions and highly expensive programs.
Last edited by GitanesBlondes on 10 Nov 2014, 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Jonnycraig
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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dans79 wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:
When your budget is circa £300m per year, it's small change to produce upgrades for yourself and not your customers.
Bean counters don't care if it's 1m increase, it's an increase and thus must be passed on to customers.
Considering the vastly increased prize money from winning the WCC, I think their accountants would be quite happy to see them spend a bit extra on some upgrades solely for the factory cars.
mrluke wrote:
xpensive wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: ...
However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...
...
As it happens, some members here have suspected this to be the case, so did Ron Dennis and complained about it.
Its been alluded to before but the agreement between the engine supplier and the team was subject to different pricing options.

The lowest option being all engines supplied at start of season and no upgrades available up to the highest option of every upgrade supplied as soon as it is available to every remaining engine.

This is very much different to a supplier deliberately giving lower powered engines to x team or retaining a particularly good one for the manufacturers favorite team.
As has been mentioned several times this season on Sky, McLaren were denied supply of the super duper go-faster fuel that the factory car has run for most of the season

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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote: Pair more technical freedom with more inexpensive engines, and you'll get plenty of manufacturers.
You will also get crappy racing, for example the 9991 united states grand prix.
only 4 cars on the lead lap and only 2 really had a chance of winning, and half the field had a technical DNF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Unite ... Grand_Prix
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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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dans79 wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: Pair more technical freedom with more inexpensive engines, and you'll get plenty of manufacturers.
You will also get crappy racing, for example the 9991 united states grand prix.
only 4 cars on the lead lap and only 2 really had a chance of winning, and half the field had a technical DNF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Unite ... Grand_Prix
This has what to do with engines?
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
dans79 wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: Pair more technical freedom with more inexpensive engines, and you'll get plenty of manufacturers.
You will also get crappy racing, for example the 9991 united states grand prix.
only 4 cars on the lead lap and only 2 really had a chance of winning, and half the field had a technical DNF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Unite ... Grand_Prix
This has what to do with engines?
its a responsive to your post that implies that somehow having more engine manufactures is better.
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dans79
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Also I'm not sure who you are but whoever is down voting peoples comments and complaining of "ranting" and "fanboyisim" should actually retort or report a post they don't like, instead of acting like a passive aggressive child and hiding behind the voting system.
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timbo
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:Pair more technical freedom with more inexpensive engines, and you'll get plenty of manufacturers.
This was because the technology arms race was only unfolding. If someone is willing to spend $100mil on something, there's no way around that.