Engine Unfreeze

[xpensive]

Also I'm not sure who you are but whoever is down voting peoples comments and complaining of "ranting" and "fanboyisim" should actually retort or report a post they don't like, instead of acting like a passive aggressive child and hiding behind the voting system.

Perhaps you should focus on writing constructive posts, instead of just objecting to other members' such,
that way you might get enough upvotes to be able to downvote yourself?

[Richard]

It's no surprise that a post with phrases such as butt suck it up is deemed to be unhelpful. Now let's get back on topic...

[GitanesBlondes]

Dans I seem to recall the FIA claiming the new engines would bring manufacturers in droves. Where are they?

[Richard]

There's a 33% increase with Honda arriving next year.

[dans79]

What Richard said!

[djos]

To those that are against the unfreeze, seriously when was the last time a new engine formula was brought in with an immediate upgrade freeze?

Never, is the answer!

Regardless of who had the biggest advantage etc etc the 1st year should never have been frozen irrespective of the teams agreeing to it. Frankly I'm still surprised that they did.

I'm still also of the opinion that the FIA should grow some balls and force oem's to supply the same spec hardware and software to customer teams that they run themselves. And for 5 million euros per year. The cost of building these power units is not the expensive part relatively spelling, it's the r&d.

If the oem can't charge 20 million per year for a pu then that gives them all less money to pour into their program chasing the last few percent of performance ..... Unless their board is willing to tip buckets of money in extra as Mercedes have done.

[xpensive]

There's a 33% increase with Honda arriving next year.

Percentage-wise yes, but numerically very little. Besides, Honda would never have bothered without the PURE-design for free.

[pob]

As has been mentioned several times this season on Sky, McLaren were denied supply of the super duper go-faster fuel that the factory car has run for most of the season

That's not denied by Mercedes for performance but because McLaren are tied to Mobil1 and chose not to use Mercedes' supplier Petronas.
Williams didn't make the same mistake and have used Petronas this season despite their sponsorship by Petrobras.

[dans79]

Regardless of who had the biggest advantage etc etc the 1st year should never have been frozen irrespective of the teams addressing to it. Frankly I'm still surprised that they did.

That's the thing though, all the teams that are complaining to the media every change they can, are the teams that had the most influence on the rules as they stand now. let's not for get it's RBR and Ferrari teams that wan't the Unfreeze. I'd have a lot more sympathy if it was teams outside of the strategy group clambering for an unfreeze.

[turbof1]

There's a 33% increase with Honda arriving next year.

You still have one and only one new engine manufacturer in the foreseeable future. Back in 2008 we had Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Renault. Fast forward to today we lost 50% of that list, and another manufacturer who got in and out during that period. One returning to the fold will not undo the damage by a long shot. Neither should we forget how huge a challenge any engine manufacturer will be facing if they want to join in: these engines are very costly to develop., simply because they are too complex. Any current non-f1 manufacturer other then the ones in the biggest groups on earth, will never find this engine formula attractive enough to justify the cost.

On the other hand the ones currently in the game and the one about to get in, will never want to see that their investments in these PU's are just a one or two year waste. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault will not accept that; too much resources have been poured in.

This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/

basicilly only limit the energy consumption. Let the manufacturers design what they want. Give them that freedom; if ferrari wants to put in a V10: fine! Renault wants a V4 twin turbo? perfect! Mercedes wants to continue on with the current engines? No issues at all! Just equalise the whole thing with the energy consumption and you have a rule set up that'll instantly be so much more attractive. And the rest will follow: more manufacturers means more sponsoring and more teams. Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.

The biggest issue with F1 is short sightness, as usual.

[pob]

As well as the exorbitant cost, a major thing that will put off new engine manufacturers if these regulations are kept is that they are not allowed to produce an engine that is significantly better than the engine manufacturers already taking part: new suppliers would fall under reg 1c of the homologation appendix and will only be accepted if "the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated units". Why take part if you're not even allowed to do a better job than the other guys?

[GitanesBlondes]

its a responsive to your post that implies that somehow having more engine manufactures is better.

It is better for the sport as it lends more credibility to the whole thing when you see manufacturers wanting to get involved as opposed to running away.

But ahhh the world as it was in 1991, what a place it was.

Simply cherry-picking the US Grand Prix doesn't really prove anything Dans.

Going into the 1991 season, it was great fun as a fan. The whole championship was very much up for grabs. Ayrton was looking to become a triple world champion, but the great unknown was as to whether or not Honda's RA121E V12 was up to the task of powering the MP4/6 to the championship or not. When Senna showed up at Estoril to first test the MP4/6 in February 1991, he was dismayed by the lack of power the engine had, as it was only producing around 670BHP at the time, and he greatly feared the Renault V10's powering the Williams FW14 as he knew they were the cars that were capable of mounting a serious challenge to his world championship hopes. He was pushing the Honda engineers to give him more power from the first day he drove the car.

Ferrari fans had reason to be hopeful as Alain Prost was coming off a near world championship that was cut short by the events of Suzuka 1990. Harvey Posthlewaite's gorgeous Tyrrell 020 looked to be a serious effort that might put Tyrrell back up towards the top of the grid since they also had the Honda V10 power and the car design used the raised nose concept that would become so prevalent over the next few years. Nelson Piquet won the final two races of 1990, and looked as good as he ever had under Flavio's pay per points deal that seemed to be the great motivator for Nelson. He was also behind the wheel of the John Barnard designed Benetton B-191...a John Barnard design should speak for itself around here. That's also to say nothing of Gary Anderson's Jordan 191, which was one of the best designed newcomer cars F1 ever had.

Sure Senna ran away with Phoenix, but do you have any idea how much work was put in over the winter to dominate like that? He won the first 7 races of the season, but it was already clear by San Marino that the Williams-Renault was going to challenge big time. The early season reliability their cars had gave Senna a points cushion he desperately needed, and it took him till Japan to clinch when Mansell spun off the circuit.

I have pretty good memories of 1991, some great racing to be had that year...oh and that guy named Schumacher made his debut too.

To bring this full circle, the engine manufacturers were doing everything they could to develop, and maintain a winning engine over the course of 16 grands prix. I believe it was the third spec version of the Honda RA121E that was producing 750HP, and Senna pushed Honda endlessly to get there. Success was anything but guaranteed in an environment where development was allowed. The biggest thing Dans, is back then F1 was fun to follow, fun to watch...yeah some races were snoozefests, but we still get that now.

The greatest thing about F1 was that the possibilities were endless...it was like how successive generations of kids grew up staring at posters on their wall of the Miura, the Countach, and the Diablo...outrageousness was the attraction. Functionality and practicality? No one gave a damn. V8's, V10's, and V12's echoing off the buildings in Monaco in May, there was no better place to be if you truly loved cars. F1 wasn't interested in being some tool to save the world. It was about letting the imagination run wild. That is what the modern fans have never experienced.

[timbo]

This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/

But it's not like there's ten different manufacturers in lmp1 either.

Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.

Well, I don't believe in that. What precludes the richer from buying most creative? In this day it is rich AND creative, look at Red Bull, look at Mercedes.

[timbo]

The greatest thing about F1 was that the possibilities were endless...it was like how successive generations of kids grew up staring at posters on their wall of the Miura, the Countach, and the Diablo...outrageousness was the attraction. Functionality and practicality? No one gave a damn. V8's, V10's, and V12's echoing off the buildings in Monaco in May, there was no better place to be if you truly loved cars. F1 wasn't interested in being some tool to save the world. It was about letting the imagination run wild. That is what the modern fans have never experienced.

I get this sentiment, but why do you think same is possible?
There's a law of diminishing returns, there IS a limit to development.

[djos]

There's a 33% increase with Honda arriving next year.

You still have one and only one new engine manufacturer in the foreseeable future. Back in 2008 we had Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Renault. Fast forward to today we lost 50% of that list, and another manufacturer who got in and out during that period. One returning to the fold will not undo the damage by a long shot. Neither should we forget how huge a challenge any engine manufacturer will be facing if they want to join in: these engines are very costly to develop., simply because they are too complex. Any current non-f1 manufacturer other then the ones in the biggest groups on earth, will never find this engine formula attractive enough to justify the cost.

On the other hand the ones currently in the game and the one about to get in, will never want to see that their investments in these PU's are just a one or two year waste. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault will not accept that; too much resources have been poured in.

This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/

basicilly only limit the energy consumption. Let the manufacturers design what they want. Give them that freedom; if ferrari wants to put in a V10: fine! Renault wants a V4 twin turbo? perfect! Mercedes wants to continue on with the current engines? No issues at all! Just equalise the whole thing with the energy consumption and you have a rule set up that'll instantly be so much more attractive. And the rest will follow: more manufacturers means more sponsoring and more teams. Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.

The biggest issue with F1 is short sightness, as usual.

I totally agree, we just need to look at how well Technical freedom in the WEC is working.