Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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timbo wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:The greatest thing about F1 was that the possibilities were endless...it was like how successive generations of kids grew up staring at posters on their wall of the Miura, the Countach, and the Diablo...outrageousness was the attraction. Functionality and practicality? No one gave a damn. V8's, V10's, and V12's echoing off the buildings in Monaco in May, there was no better place to be if you truly loved cars. F1 wasn't interested in being some tool to save the world. It was about letting the imagination run wild. That is what the modern fans have never experienced.
I get this sentiment, but why do you think same is possible?
There's a law of diminishing returns, there IS a limit to development.
People think there is a law of diminishing returns...but diminishing returns has a way of going out the window when new technologies are invented. Just when you think the maximum has been reached something new comes along.

Keep in mind that men of Andrew Jackson's day could travel no faster than men of Julius Caesar's day....for 1800 years travel was limited...till the steam locomotive came along. Point being as it relates to all areas of life with technology, you don't think something is possible usually till it comes along.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Wayne DR
Wayne DR
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 01:07

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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turbof1 wrote: You still have one and only one new engine manufacturer in the foreseeable future. Back in 2008 we had Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Renault. Fast forward to today we lost 50% of that list, and another manufacturer who got in and out during that period. One returning to the fold will not undo the damage by a long shot. Neither should we forget how huge a challenge any engine manufacturer will be facing if they want to join in: these engines are very costly to develop., simply because they are too complex. Any current non-f1 manufacturer other then the ones in the biggest groups on earth, will never find this engine formula attractive enough to justify the cost.

On the other hand the ones currently in the game and the one about to get in, will never want to see that their investments in these PU's are just a one or two year waste. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault will not accept that; too much resources have been poured in.

This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/

basicilly only limit the energy consumption. Let the manufacturers design what they want. Give them that freedom; if ferrari wants to put in a V10: fine! Renault wants a V4 twin turbo? perfect! Mercedes wants to continue on with the current engines? No issues at all! Just equalise the whole thing with the energy consumption and you have a rule set up that'll instantly be so much more attractive. And the rest will follow: more manufacturers means more sponsoring and more teams. Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.

The biggest issue with F1 is short sightness, as usual.
I agree 100%, the current rules are too restrictive!

I listened to a Motorsport Magazine Podcast interviewing the legendary Gordon Murray (the man who bought us the fan car, pit stops and the race rear-end!). He said there is no way he would be involved in the sport today, as it is too prescriptive and allows no room for free thinking. (The classic comment was his perception of the "Green Engines", it was along the lines of don't you thing F1 engines are already naturally green? Designers and engineers are already trying to go as far as they can, as fast as possible, on the least amount of fuel - winning cars already do this!!)

The one thing we had in the 60's, 70's and early 80's, was the ability for privateers and teams to run the previous years' cars. The rules are changing that quickly now that teams are forced to scrap last years cars every year and start from scratch! (A great example: Ferrari ran the F2002 for the first few races of 2003, when they released the F2003GA...)

Everyone is SO totally focused on reducing costs, but how much money could be saved if teams lime Marrussia and Caterham could run last years Ferrari, Red Bull or Mercedes, instead of designing their own cars from scratch?

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dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
dans79 wrote: Simply cherry-picking the US Grand Prix doesn't really prove anything Dans.
it wasn't cherry picked, It was first race of the season. it's pretty reprasentative though

This is how many cars finished on the lead lap per race.

USA: 4
BRA: 6
SMR: 2
MON: 3
CAN: 5
MEX: 3
FRA: 4
GBR: 3
GER: 6
HUN: 5
BEL: 7
ITA: 8
POR: 6
ESP: 6
JPN: 4
AUS: 13

That's an average of 5.3 cars on the lead lap


scroll down this page and look at the number of times drivers retired (1991 Drivers' Championship final standings), it looks like a last man standing competition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Formula_One_season

Senna: 1
Mansell: 5
Patrese: 5
Berger: 7
Prost: 6
Piquet: 5
Alesi: 8
201 105 104 9 9 7

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:People think there is a law of diminishing returns...but diminishing returns has a way of going out the window when new technologies are invented. Just when you think the maximum has been reached something new comes along.

Keep in mind that men of Andrew Jackson's day could travel no faster than men of Julius Caesar's day....for 1800 years travel was limited...till the steam locomotive came along. Point being as it relates to all areas of life with technology, you don't think something is possible usually till it comes along.
But we are talking petrol fuelled closed course racing. And it is already possible to design a car which would exceed what human is capable of physically. So there is limit to how fast can you go driving a car.
Just how much further can you go?

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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With three different winners this year, I fail to see any improvement from 1991-93, but the point is that there was engine diversity.

Technically interesting so to speak.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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GitanesBlondes
26
Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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dans79 wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:
dans79 wrote: Simply cherry-picking the US Grand Prix doesn't really prove anything Dans.
it wasn't cherry picked, It was first race of the season. it's pretty reprasentative though

This is how many cars finished on the lead lap per race.

USA: 4
BRA: 6
SMR: 2
MON: 3
CAN: 5
MEX: 3
FRA: 4
GBR: 3
GER: 6
HUN: 5
BEL: 7
ITA: 8
POR: 6
ESP: 6
JPN: 4
AUS: 13

That's an average of 5.3 cars on the lead lap


scroll down this page and look at the number of times drivers retired (1991 Drivers' Championship final standings), it looks like a last man standing competition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Formula_One_season

Senna: 1
Mansell: 5
Patrese: 5
Berger: 7
Prost: 6
Piquet: 5
Alesi: 8
If you watched F1 back then, you would know that there never was any certainty with how any given race would play out. It was very much a team sport, and the job that the engineers and mechanics did was quite noticeable.

You're playing the hindsight game which is pointless as everything is 20/20 when looking back, which is specifically why I made the post about the 1991 season I did. It was a giant unknown going into the season for many reasons.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Harsha
Harsha
12
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 14:35

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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turbof1 wrote:
Richard wrote:There's a 33% increase with Honda arriving next year.
You still have one and only one new engine manufacturer in the foreseeable future. Back in 2008 we had Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Renault. Fast forward to today we lost 50% of that list, and another manufacturer who got in and out during that period. One returning to the fold will not undo the damage by a long shot. Neither should we forget how huge a challenge any engine manufacturer will be facing if they want to join in: these engines are very costly to develop., simply because they are too complex. Any current non-f1 manufacturer other then the ones in the biggest groups on earth, will never find this engine formula attractive enough to justify the cost.

On the other hand the ones currently in the game and the one about to get in, will never want to see that their investments in these PU's are just a one or two year waste. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault will not accept that; too much resources have been poured in.

This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/

basicilly only limit the energy consumption. Let the manufacturers design what they want. Give them that freedom; if ferrari wants to put in a V10: fine! Renault wants a V4 twin turbo? perfect! Mercedes wants to continue on with the current engines? No issues at all! Just equalise the whole thing with the energy consumption and you have a rule set up that'll instantly be so much more attractive. And the rest will follow: more manufacturers means more sponsoring and more teams. Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.

The biggest issue with F1 is short sightness, as usual.
I agree with 100%. Just put regulations only for basic points and let the teams run what ever development path they can so that they can be creative and have healthy competition. I always believe we can have more natural competition than artificial mockery.

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djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote: If you watched F1 back then, you would know that there never was any certainty with how any given race would play out. It was very much a team sport, and the job that the engineers and mechanics did was quite noticeable.

You're playing the hindsight game which is pointless as everything is 20/20 when looking back, which is specifically why I made the post about the 1991 season I did. It was a giant unknown going into the season for many reasons.
So true and because the engine makers where all pushing the boundaries of technology every weekend we had frequent blowups during races and you just never knew who was going to make it to the end of the race ... it was great!

I still miss the 2 metre wide cars, F1 cars have never looked quite as good since. :cry:

Image
"In downforce we trust"

Harsha
Harsha
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Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 14:35

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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djos wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: If you watched F1 back then, you would know that there never was any certainty with how any given race would play out. It was very much a team sport, and the job that the engineers and mechanics did was quite noticeable.

You're playing the hindsight game which is pointless as everything is 20/20 when looking back, which is specifically why I made the post about the 1991 season I did. It was a giant unknown going into the season for many reasons.
So true and because the engine makers where all pushing the boundaries of technology every weekend we had frequent blowups during races and you just never knew who was going to make it to the end of the race ... it was great!

I still miss the 2 metre wide cars, F1 cars have never looked quite as good since. :cry:

http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/597x478/T ... esp03a.jpg
If F1 situation right now was going to fall if it continues to stay in this path very soon. so who knows we may see better things at some time cos its said "Every thing has a beginning has an end"

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
bill shoe wrote:Ferrari and Renault are big babies...
Actually it was the 4 cylinder turbo units originally than Mosley wanted, but no one wanted them at all.

For those who actually have looked at the larger picture, the economics of this formula never made sense, and it was clear to many knowledgeable members here well over a year ago that this engine change was ill-thought out as it was a byproduct of Max Mosley's own imagination.

If Mercedes quits because they go back to V8's, then Cosworth will pickup right where they left off.
Good point, I think that's true. Whether you like It depends on your perspective. If you want fair play between companies then Renault and Ferrari are being unfair to Mercedes. If you want lots of teams that are competitive then you want the V-8 nuclear option that leads to Merc leaving and Cosworth returning. My outer-self says don't screw Mercedes simply because they got it right. My inner-self really wants to see lots of interesting midfield teams with plug-n-play Cosworth V-8's.

More thoughts-

1. Merc would probably love to dominate F1 this year and next, and then bail out on top when the rules are blatantly altered to help other companies. Merc's current spend is dwarfing the public cost estimates they made when they bought Brawn (remember they told their unions it would be cheaper than supplying McLaren?).

2. The spend level of F1 engines is such that a company can't afford to put that much money into it and then accept coming home 3rd or 4th or 5th in the championship. BMW and Toyota decided they couldn't accept it. Their problem was not their spend level, rather it was the spend level relative to results. I don't see how 4 or 5 companies could ever keep up a huge spend in F1 if there's only room at the top for one or two success stories. It seems the long-term max number of manufacturer teams and/or engines in F1 is two or three. It would probably be only two if not for the special case of Ferrari that has (so far) stuck it out through thick and thin.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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djos wrote:To those that are against the unfreeze, seriously when was the last time a new engine formula was brought in with an immediate upgrade freeze?

Never, is the answer!

Regardless of who had the biggest advantage etc etc the 1st year should never have been frozen irrespective of the teams agreeing to it. Frankly I'm still surprised that they did.


I'm still also of the opinion that the FIA should grow some balls and force oem's to supply the same spec hardware and software to customer teams that they run themselves. And for 5 million euros per year. The cost of building these power units is not the expensive part relatively spelling, it's the r&d.

If the oem can't charge 20 million per year for a pu then that gives them all less money to pour into their program chasing the last few percent of performance ..... Unless their board is willing to tip buckets of money in extra as Mercedes have done.
All very good and valid points if you ask me! =D>
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

flmkane
flmkane
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Joined: 08 Oct 2012, 08:13

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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I think it's complete bull**** to point fingers at the current engines, and blame them for this so called "financial crisis"

They engines are expensive. Sure. But the only reason the old engines were "cheap" was because they'd been around so long, that their R&D costs had basically already been recovered. If the engine wars had never stopped, costs would have been sky high anyway.

Mind you, the costs had never gone down after the engine freeze. Money was instead directed to fiddly little vortex generators, and bendy wings. Ofcourse, a lot of it still went to engine mappings and such.

Even with the old V8s the teams currently in trouble, would have been struggling anyway. Hell, Lotus got into dire straits LAST year, BEFORE the V6 era started.

Besides which, IIRC this so called 'crisis' is nothing compared to 2008-09, when FOUR MANUFACTURERS bailed out of F1, plus Super Auguri going bust.

Caterham and Marussia were doomed anyway. They were promised a budget cap of $40 million, which never happened. Tough luck. Who the hell cares? Did it matter when HRT went away? Or Super Auguri, Spyker, Minardi etc?

The TRUTH in my opinion, is that the smaller teams are fed up with being left with an unfairly small portion of the TV revenue, and are pressuring Ecclestone to change this situation.

On a side note, Hybrid engines are the way of the future. F1 is supposed to be the cutting edge of motorsports. It cant afford to be stuck in the 90s. It NEEDS the new engines. I only hope they loosen up regulations to let them get more powerful... and dare I say it, more noisy. Remove the fuel flow restriction, reintroduce refueling, remove rev limiter and bring back racing tyres (real ones... like Michelin)

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turbof1
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Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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timbo wrote:
turbof1 wrote:This is frankly only fixable with this:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/fia- ... -for-2014/
But it's not like there's ten different manufacturers in lmp1 either.
turbof1 wrote:Costs will go down since you can compensate with creativity.
Give WEC some time; these rules have only been introduced this year. However, it'll allow almost any manufacturer to develop the kind of engine they want opposed to the engine they need to build due regulations. Those 2014 rules effectively turned WEC into an excellent R&D platform.

Well, I don't believe in that. What precludes the richer from buying most creative? In this day it is rich AND creative, look at Red Bull, look at Mercedes.
It's that way because you have very stringent regulations. Any creativity has effectively been squeezed out, with only a few details left that are very deep in diminishing returns, meaning the teams need to spend huge amounts to get a decent step forward.

Back in the 2000's, Toyota and Honda barely got anything done in F1, and they were among the biggest budgets! As long there's room for creativity, you don't need to have vast sums to be quite succesful. Renault in 2005 and 2006 for instance had the budget of a midfielder, but did took the championships!

The WEC rules on the other hand would allow a simple engine to be efficient and effective, with a lot of potentional to beat a rich manufacturer.
#AeroFrodo

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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All the nostalgia for the old days is nice, but it's never going to happen. You can reset the rules back to your favourite era and you'll get similar scenario to now.

In the olden days people were making it up as they went along, so garagistas with clever ideas could outfox the big teams. Even when you had a fast car you weren't sure if it would get to the end. In many races less than half the entrants didn't get to the finish line, if that happened now there'd be outcry about who let those amateurs on to the track.
Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, F1 has hit the capitalist wall.

In capitalism, once you deregulate a sector invariably tends to have only three players while the other smaller potatoes are adorn figures
You'll be needing the Herfindahl index:

(based on prize money)

This infers moderate concentration. Add in sponsorship and we'd be into the utterly non-competitive end of the scale. Add in the preferential voting when setting the rules and we're into give up hope end of the scale.

The reason is quite simple, the sport & technology has matured so we now have a few dominant participants with huge budgets who are able to manipulate events to suit their goals. Those huge budgets result in barriers to entry for other teams who can never hope to compete. Even when the aero was homogenised to allow the teams to be able to build a car at a reasonable price the big teams with huge budgets dominated the aero arms race.

So lets imagine the FIA say there is an engine free for all, any configuration is allowed. You'd find within a season that the big teams rapidly converge on the same performance. They'd reassert themselves as leaders of the pack. The little teams couldn't afford to keep up.

This domination by a few players pervades all markets. We have the same in politics with mature democracies dominated by a two parties, we see it with groceries dominated by P&G and Unilever. Then there are the examples cited by Ciro. Also 90% of the words cereal production is controlled by just 4 companies, those 4 firms determine the price of food for the whole world. That default scenario of 3 or 4 big players dominating a competitive environment is a fact of life, F1 doesn't have some magic immunity to it.

So yearning for a return to a long gone era is like wishing the tide didn't come in, or someone in middle age harking back to their teenage years. We can only get back to the teenage years of F1 if we find some way to unlearn the knowledge. Alas, knowledge can't be unlearnt so the only credible end game is disruption or revolution. Bernie has been too clever to let that happens. He has the perfect knack of squeezing everything up to (but not over) the point of inciting insurrection. However nothing lasts for ever, even Bernie can't hold back. It just depends on how long you are prepared to wait.

Of course the answer of sports organisation around the world is to neuter the competitive facts of life by implementing central control. The irony being that the sports with the most central control (aka socialism!) are to be found in the USA, the country where capitalism is mercilessly red in tooth and claw.

ps - As for the engine freeze, it was a cynical ploy when the rules were made up and now its backfired on the people who put it in there. I really don't have much sympathy for them. Hopefully 2015 will be a bit more sensible.

pps - It's not "hopefully" 2015 will be more sensible, it's a certainty. Why? Because it is in the interests of the dominant players to rig the game in their mutual favour.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Horner puts it as it is. It's either give us this small compromise now, or face free for all in 16-17-18.