Engine Unfreeze

[ParkerArt]

I think Herr Wolff is grasping at straws.

He is saying the exact same thing that Horner would be saying if Renault were sitting on the best engine. Everyone knows that the major disadvantages that Renault are surfing from are ERS harvesting, charge cooling and early component reliability.

I'm not sure why or how Renault want to play hardball with the engine regulations since they have half the number of supported teams, less staff and a smaller budget. Do they really think that they can win the development race against Mercedes and Ferrari? I realize they can't afford another season in a row where the championship is a foregone conclusion but Red Bull would have a serious chance at becoming 4th rather than 2nd in 2016.

[Wayne DR]

The irony is that the Renault PUs are the most expensive on the grid for 2014 at EU 21 million for the season...
Mercedes PUs are EU 16.5 million and Ferrari EU 14.7 million. (Compared to the EU 8.3 million capped figure from 2013...)

I wonder what PU #7 or PU #8 cost RBR and Torro Rosso, as the price obviously only allows for supplying 12 (6 Units for 2 cars...)

So if Herr Wolff really wants to help Caterham, he could take over their PU supply deal for 2015, and save them EU 4.5 million per season!!!

Or if he really cares, he could throw in the 2014 Mercs, with 2015 compliant noses for free (just like a set of steak knives) and let them run those!

[astracrazy]

i think he just means these teams went out of business because of the escalating costs. so lets show we've listened and learnt and apply it here. there's no point everyone saying something needs to be done, but hold on, only when it suits us.

[Jonnycraig]

i think he just means these teams went out of business because of the escalating costs. so lets show we've listened and learnt and apply it here. there's no point everyone saying something needs to be done, but hold on, only when it suits us.

Well by far and away the most expensive item so surely Wolff should be campaigning to ditch the ludicrously expensive engines...

Thought not.

[Richard]

The simplest answer is to shuffle the prize money so the small teams get an extra £10m to compensate for the more expensive engines required by the regs. That ensures the big teams keep their customers.

[MOWOG]

Aero costs far more than engines/power trains ever could. Why is no one in the sport talking about the 800 pound gorilla in the room?

If it is true (I am still uncertain about this) that Lewis could make up 7 seconds on Nico but was then unable to pressure him because the disturbed air behind Nico's car took away too much downforce on the front of Lewis' car, is that not an issue that is at LEAST as important as whether Mercedes has a 50 or 80 or 100 horsepower advantage on everyone else?

There are at least a half dozen threads here about how to fix F1. The answer, to me, is simple. Figure out how to let the fans see real competition on track. The cut, thrust and parry of the world's top drivers at the top of their craft.

Just look at the front wings of the cars. Is the sight of all those winglets, slots, slits and curlicues REALLY what gets race fans excited? Is that what makes us tune in to every race whatever else may be going on in our lives? I think not.

If you could wire every race fan and read his or her brainwave activity throughout a race, there would be a substantial rise in emotion at the start and every time one driver is hounding another on track. The famous Michael Schumacher "stalk mode" as he sliced tenths of a second off the car in front every lap leading up to the climactic pass for the lead was exciting. Side by side, wheel to wheel action is exciting.

Watching drivers conserve their tires is not exciting. Seeing a parade of cars motoring around at part throttle is not exciting. Reading about the teams, FOM and the FIA bickering about rules is not exciting.

If the sport does not figure out how to give the fans excitement, it may continue to limp forward into the future, but it will become irrelevant. Some would argue it already is.

[turbof1]

The simplest answer is to shuffle the prize money so the small teams get an extra £10m to compensate for the more expensive engines required by the regs. That ensures the big teams keep their customers.

Never going to happen; the current FOM contracts are signed and done, and the bigger teams already said they weren't going to give a slice of their share to support the smaller ones. You'll need to wait until the current contracts expire, which means waiting years before a reshuffle of the money happens.

A more realistic option is to have the price money that marussia and caterham forfeited, being devided among force india, lotus and sauber. That too however seems unlikely, with CVC probably deviding it among shareholders.

The only way something significant will happen is if more teams will go bankrupt. A decision to go back to V8s will force Mercedes to quit F1.

The only thing that will happen is that the status-quo will be more or less kept. Either they choose to allow in-season development for 2015, or they will allow it in 2016, but never anything drastic since Mercedes quitting will leave 4 teams without PUs.

Again, moving towards a model like the WEC could solve the issue. It'll take something which none the parties have, 5 minutes of political courage, which is a shame.

[xpensive]

@MOWOG; curbing aero costs would be easy enough to do, a standard front wing and a flat bottom all the way, the latter as everything you do aero-wise aims to speed up the air under the car, a flat bottom would effectively make such ambitions redundant.

As for the engines, these fuel conserving PUs are totally out of place in F1 and not xciting, contraptions like that is for the WEC.

[turbof1]

@MOWOG; curbing aero costs would be easy enough to do, a standard front wing and a flat bottom all the way, the latter as everything you do aero-wise aims to speed up the air under the car, a flat bottom would effectively make such ambitions redundant.

As for the engines, these fuel conserving PUs are totally out of place in F1 and not xciting, contraptions like that is for the WEC.

The issue is you need to have something attractive for engine manufacturers. The times of high hp engines without any regard to fuel use, are over. Any major manufacturer will want a platform they can use for R&D concepts concerning fuel conservation.

That doesn't necessarily have to conflict with something exciting. Basicilly, remove the fuel flow limit and give each car a 100kg fuel tank and let them have fun with that.

And of course: what's not exciting about the WEC? You have 3 VASTLY different engines. From a technical point of view that's paradise. When was the last time we had in F1 differences in engines that big?

[xpensive]

But hey now, a compromise solution could be to allow both today's PUs and the 2013 2.4 V8s, the power should pretty equal?

[astracrazy]

i think he just means these teams went out of business because of the escalating costs. so lets show we've listened and learnt and apply it here. there's no point everyone saying something needs to be done, but hold on, only when it suits us.

Well by far and away the most expensive item so surely Wolff should be campaigning to ditch the ludicrously expensive engines...

Thought not.

because just scrapping engines which have cost hundred of millions of $ to develop makes good financial sense?

this is the mess f1 is in.

[turbof1]

But hey now, a compromise solution could be to allow both today's PUs and the 2013 2.4 V8s, the power should pretty equal?

Yes, that would sound nice. However, you have to know that none of the parties at the commission table are going to agree on that. There will be discussions about how to make it fair, and everybody will try to gain as much as an advantage out of it as they can. Mercedes will cry about the costs, red bull will b*tch about competition, etc etc.

We are speaking about a class of toddlers who literally would fight over who gets to play with the lego blocks. I personally hate dictators, but at these times you'd wish for a Joseph Stalin-alike person to throw the fist down on the table, get everybody in line and make them follow decisions with question. You'd get something done atleast in the chaos that F1 is currently.

[Jonnycraig]

If it is true (I am still uncertain about this) that Lewis could make up 7 seconds on Nico but was then unable to pressure him because the disturbed air behind Nico's car took away too much downforce on the front of Lewis' car, is that not an issue that is at LEAST as important as whether Mercedes has a 50 or 80 or 100 horsepower advantage on everyone else?

Whilst it's probably not the thread for it, Rosberg said after the race that Hamilton's spin meant that he could cruise and ensure plenty of tire life at the end.

[Richard]

And of course: what's not exciting about the WEC? You have 3 VASTLY different engines. From a technical point of view that's paradise. When was the last time we had in F1 differences in engines that big?

LMP1-H only has 3 teams so they have to agree to rules that mean they have a reasonable chance of competing head to head. They can't afford to annoy each other because one of the teams would drop out, there is also no one like Bernie stirring things up. In contrast in F1 there are enough people with competing interests to allow Bernie to play them off against each other.

[Jonnycraig]

i think he just means these teams went out of business because of the escalating costs. so lets show we've listened and learnt and apply it here. there's no point everyone saying something needs to be done, but hold on, only when it suits us.

Well by far and away the most expensive item so surely Wolff should be campaigning to ditch the ludicrously expensive engines...

Thought not.

because just scrapping engines which have cost hundred of millions of $ to develop makes good financial sense?

this is the mess f1 is in.

Well there are two options, ditch the engines that hundreds of millions have been spent on and go back to far cheaper alternatives, or continue to throw more and more money at the engines, passing that cost on to customers.

One option is better for the small teams, one option better for Mercedes, so it's a touch disingenuous for Wolff to claim a desire to help smaller teams whilst wishing to proceed with the V6 development.