Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
Ferrari and Honda are poised for a mid-season engine upgrade, after it emerged on Monday that they had both used development tokens. With the two engine manufacturers looking to make improvements, there had been suggestions that they would both wait a while before upgrading their power units. However, a document sent to all teams on Monday by motor racing's governing body, revealed that the two had already used up tokens.
The note said that Ferrari had used three tokens and Honda had used two tokens from their allocation.
Honda is running their turbo at 125k RPM. Merc is only running 100k. Not that the speed alone matters, but I thought it was interesting that Honda was running right at the max. Honda is estimated to be bringing an upgrade of 10hp and they seem to be focusing their development efforts on the turbine, compressor and MGU-H.
tuj wrote:Honda is running their turbo at 125k RPM. Merc is only running 100k. Not that the speed alone matters, but I thought it was interesting that Honda was running right at the max. Honda is estimated to be bringing an upgrade of 10hp and they seem to be focusing their development efforts on the turbine, compressor and MGU-H.
Interesting do you have a source? If true it would be very sad that they didn't learn from Ferrari's mistakes.
I disagree. TJ13 does speculate, but there are a lot of informed voices over there as well. They correctly predicted the Renault woes last year before anyone I recall.
His article doesn't say definitively that Honda is using max allowed shaft speed(125,000), it says that it is "believed" , same for Mercedes saying they're believed to be running at 100,000rpm. Perhaps Honda's problem is the compressor is too small, and Mercedes is delivering more boost at lower turbine rpm, IF the reports are true. Perhaps Honda miscalculated the compressor efficiency requirements.
So what do we think the tokens have been spent on?
Tokens Item Frozen
3 Upper/lower crankcase: All dimensions including cylinder bore position relative to legality volume, water core 2016
3 Ancillaries drive: From ancillary to power source. Includes position of the ancillaries as far as drive is concerned 2016
3 Combustion: All parts of parts defining combustion. Included: ports, piston crown, combustion chamber, valves geometry, timing, lift, injector nozzle, coils, spark plug. Excluded: valves position 2019
2 Valve drive: Gear train down to crankshaft gear included. Position and geometry. Includes dampers 2016
2 Valves axis position: Includes angle but excludes axial displacement 2018
2 Valves drive: From valve to camshaft lobe. Position and geometry. Exhaust and inlet. Including valve return function inside the head 2018
2 Crankshaft: Except crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter. Includes crankshaft bearings 2018
2 Cylinder head: Except modifications linked to subsequent modifications 2019
2 Con rods: Including small and big end bearings 2019
2 Pistons: Including bearings and pin. Excluding crown 2019
2 Injection system: PU mounted fuel system components: (e.g. high pressure fuel hose, fuel rail, fuel injectors, accumulators). Excluding injector nozzle 2019 2 Pressure charging: From compressor inlet to compressor outlet 2019
2 Pressure charging: From turbine inlet to turbine outlet 2019
2 MGU-H: Complete. All internals including bearings, casing… 2019
2 MGU-H: Position, transmission 2019
2 MGU-K: Complete. All internals including bearings, casing… 2019
2 MGU-K: Position, transmission 2019
2 Energy store: Cells 2019
2 Energy store: BMS 2019
1 Valve drive – Camshafts: From camshaft lobe to gear train. Geometry except lift profile. Includes damping systems linked to camshaft. Exhaust and inlet 2016
1 Covers: Covers closing the areas in contact with engine oil cam covers, cam-timing covers… 2016
1 Oil pressure pumps: Including filter. Excluding internal if no impact on body 2018
1 Oil scavenge systems: Any scavenging system 2018
1 Oil recuperation: Oil/air separator, oil tank, catch tank 2019
1 Engine water pumps: Include power unit mounted water pipes 2019
1 Inlet system: Plenum and associated actuators. Excluding pressure charging, trumpets and throttle associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Inlet system: Trumpets and associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Inlet system: Throttles and associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Pressure charging: External actuators linked to pressure charging 2019
1 Ignition system: Ignition coils, driver box 2019
1 Lubrication: All parts in which circulates oil under pressure (oil pump gears, channels, piping, jets) and not mentioned elsewhere in the table 2019
1 Friction coatings 2019
1 Sliding or rotating seals 2019 1 MGU-H: Power electronics 2019
1 MGU-K: Power electronics 2019
1 ERS: Cooling/Lubrication systems (Including ES jackets, pipes, pumps, actuators) 2019
1 Pressure charging: From engine exhaust flanges to turbine inlet n/a
1 Electrical system: Engine mounted electrical components (e.g. wiring loom within legality volume, sensors, alternator). Excluding actuators, ignition coils and spark plugs n/a
stevesingo wrote:So what do we think the tokens have been spent on?
Tokens Item Frozen
3 Upper/lower crankcase: All dimensions including cylinder bore position relative to legality volume, water core 2016
3 Ancillaries drive: From ancillary to power source. Includes position of the ancillaries as far as drive is concerned 2016
3 Combustion: All parts of parts defining combustion. Included: ports, piston crown, combustion chamber, valves geometry, timing, lift, injector nozzle, coils, spark plug. Excluded: valves position 2019
2 Valve drive: Gear train down to crankshaft gear included. Position and geometry. Includes dampers 2016
2 Valves axis position: Includes angle but excludes axial displacement 2018
2 Valves drive: From valve to camshaft lobe. Position and geometry. Exhaust and inlet. Including valve return function inside the head 2018
2 Crankshaft: Except crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter. Includes crankshaft bearings 2018
2 Cylinder head: Except modifications linked to subsequent modifications 2019
2 Con rods: Including small and big end bearings 2019
2 Pistons: Including bearings and pin. Excluding crown 2019
2 Injection system: PU mounted fuel system components: (e.g. high pressure fuel hose, fuel rail, fuel injectors, accumulators). Excluding injector nozzle 2019 2 Pressure charging: From compressor inlet to compressor outlet 2019
2 Pressure charging: From turbine inlet to turbine outlet 2019
2 MGU-H: Complete. All internals including bearings, casing… 2019
2 MGU-H: Position, transmission 2019
2 MGU-K: Complete. All internals including bearings, casing… 2019
2 MGU-K: Position, transmission 2019
2 Energy store: Cells 2019
2 Energy store: BMS 2019
1 Valve drive – Camshafts: From camshaft lobe to gear train. Geometry except lift profile. Includes damping systems linked to camshaft. Exhaust and inlet 2016
1 Covers: Covers closing the areas in contact with engine oil cam covers, cam-timing covers… 2016
1 Oil pressure pumps: Including filter. Excluding internal if no impact on body 2018
1 Oil scavenge systems: Any scavenging system 2018
1 Oil recuperation: Oil/air separator, oil tank, catch tank 2019
1 Engine water pumps: Include power unit mounted water pipes 2019
1 Inlet system: Plenum and associated actuators. Excluding pressure charging, trumpets and throttle associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Inlet system: Trumpets and associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Inlet system: Throttles and associated parts and actuators 2019
1 Pressure charging: External actuators linked to pressure charging 2019
1 Ignition system: Ignition coils, driver box 2019
1 Lubrication: All parts in which circulates oil under pressure (oil pump gears, channels, piping, jets) and not mentioned elsewhere in the table 2019
1 Friction coatings 2019
1 Sliding or rotating seals 2019 1 MGU-H: Power electronics 2019
1 MGU-K: Power electronics 2019
1 ERS: Cooling/Lubrication systems (Including ES jackets, pipes, pumps, actuators) 2019
1 Pressure charging: From engine exhaust flanges to turbine inlet n/a
1 Electrical system: Engine mounted electrical components (e.g. wiring loom within legality volume, sensors, alternator). Excluding actuators, ignition coils and spark plugs n/a
The bolded are the most likely options IMO
Based on Arai comments about the MGU-K being important in Canada, I'm going with them replacing that (whole hog).
tuj wrote:Honda is running their turbo at 125k RPM. Merc is only running 100k. Not that the speed alone matters, but I thought it was interesting that Honda was running right at the max. Honda is estimated to be bringing an upgrade of 10hp and they seem to be focusing their development efforts on the turbine, compressor and MGU-H.
People in the turbo industry hardly ever talk about RPM, the important number is tip speed of the outside of the compressor in meters per second. Centrifugal compressors always have a certain tip speed where they are most efficient and a rated tip speed where it becomes over stressed, you generally want to run as close to the max as possible. If Honda has a significantly smaller compressor, which seems likely since they have crammed it in under the plenum, they would have to run higher turbo RPM to get the same tip speed.
Ok i dont believe that hondas turbo is revving that much higher if we are to believe that they are using a mixed flow compressor. The paper posted on mixed flow compressors do state that it has a much higher specific speed at the same pressure . It gave more flow for each rpm. This means that honda can downsize the compressor but by virtue of the incread specific speed the compressor would not need to spin faster. Think of it as a small sized turbo behaving like a big one.
