Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[drunkf1fan]

http://en.f1i.com/news/20345-honda-ran- ... ngary.html

Interesting read, looks like they are lacking power mostly from their ICE rather than their ERS since they were running that at 100% but still lacking a lot of straight line speed.

Running the ERS at 100% doesn't mean the ICE is underpowered. A undersized/balanced/powered ERS system designed to deliver lets say 1.8Mj per lap while other teams are designed to harvest and deliver 2.5Mj per lap. ERS at 100% just means it's doing what it's designed to do(or so they think) not that the ERS is designed to take every last ounce of power.

I still feel that seemingly like Ferrari they went with the wrong design goals, focused on size and didn't prioritise ERS power which compromises both max sustainable BHP but also hurts efficiency which compounds the effect as they need to run slower to use less fuel.

Still think next year we'll see similar changes to Ferrari, move compressor out of the V, balance the engine and make chassis/aero compromises to increase sustainable BHP through better ERS system focused on pure efficiency not focused on getting the best they can out of the most limited space possible.

Unless they crack the full split turbo which judging from Merc took ages and a lot of resources, we'll probably see a compressor on the back of the engine next year. I'd be interested to see if they crack the compressor in the V along with reasonable ERS power next year but I really believe they'll either make big changes like Ferrari or they'll have another bad year.

Worst is the assumption/impression that Mclaren/Honda and so many pundits have been pushing, that the actual engine they started the year with would be a monster when unlimited.... clearly that is not the case. At a track they were supposed to be more competitive at due to the characteristics and power not being as important, Alonso was 103 seconds behind Vettel before the safety car came out. The engine running with full ers power for a change and it was as far back as usual from the leaders, just everyone in between had, lets say, slightly unusual races.

[pgfpro]

Don't know about the Drive section but:

81376 rpm should be Turbo rpm
2.29 bar should be Charge Air Pressure
TExl should be Exhaust temperature of the left Cylinder Bank
TExr same on the right hand side

The other 2 could be Fuel usage.

I'm trying to find exhaust back pressure on the telemetry but can't see it? I would think they would have it right with the turbo outputs? It should shadow the intake boost numbers to some degree until they load the turbo for more MGUH energy.

[pgfpro]

Looking at the telemetry at 30:24 I see 3.71Bar Boost (Abs?) at 114,456rpm (turbine rpm), 991/1001degC EGT and 100kg/hr fuel flow. Then at 30:29 after a period of closed throttle 1.35Bar Boost (Abs?) at 56584rpm (turbine rpm), 753/758degC EGT and 0kg/hr. There are a few more examples later in the video.

That's gold. Higher boost and turbine rpm than any commentator (eg Benzing) has claimed so far. Certainly puts paid to those insisting boost must be less than 3 bar abs.

I've been saying that that 3+ Bar Boost is correct right from the start. As I know that it is.

Anyway, I suspect PO and VO are Pressure of Oil and Volume of Oil (litres in the tank) as these are absolutely critical data for dyno running.

The most interesting thing in that video is that they have 'blurred out' the turbine housing suggesting that it may be something a bit more trick than just a double inlet housing.

Perhaps the 'lump' on the top of the housing in the first picture is some sort of integrated wastegate housing or other type of pressure control system as I dont see a wastegate anywhere else in the exhaust system.

I agree with you on this one. From all the testing I have been doing on my own compound system and running numbers on my engine simulator high intake boost numbers can be your friend. Keeping in mind high intake boost numbers don't always mean more output power.

[David1976]

http://en.f1i.com/news/20345-honda-ran- ... ngary.html

Interesting read, looks like they are lacking power mostly from their ICE rather than their ERS since they were running that at 100% but still lacking a lot of straight line speed.

Still think next year we'll see similar changes to Ferrari, move compressor out of the V, balance the engine and make chassis/aero compromises to increase sustainable BHP through better ERS system focused on pure efficiency not focused on getting the best they can out of the most limited space possible.

I disagree. I don't think it will sit well within the Honda culture to adopt a similar approach to Ferrari or others. I think they'll work on their chosen design until they meet the objectives they set out.

[drunkf1fan]

Really as I said I think that there are two real options, stick with what they are doing and have another bad year IMHO or they'll make a significant change. In terms of copying Ferrari I wouldn't say that, ultimately Ferrari tried something different themselves and reverted to a pretty standard layout, turbine/compressor behind the engine. I wouldn't call Honda doing the same thing copying Ferrari but both reverting to a standard layout.

I can see Honda sticking with what they are doing not because they think they'd be copying Ferrari but basically out of being stubborn, we came up with this design and we want to make it work as opposed to admitting defeat and moving back to something more standard.

[ringo]

I agree with you on this one. From all the testing I have been doing on my own compound system and running numbers on my engine simulator high intake boost numbers can be your friend. Keeping in mind high intake boost numbers don't always mean more output power.

Why is that so?
And have you been using these numbers across your rev range. Keep in mind this high boost condition is very momentary on the Honda Engine.
I'm not disagreeing with the use of such high boost pressure in some cases. I just believe that most of the time it's one bar less, with more conventional A:F levels for max power.
What is your support of excessive air, knowing well that more power is required to pump this air resulting in higher temperatures?

[trinidefender]

I agree with you on this one. From all the testing I have been doing on my own compound system and running numbers on my engine simulator high intake boost numbers can be your friend. Keeping in mind high intake boost numbers don't always mean more output power.

Why is that so?
And have you been using these numbers across your rev range. Keep in mind this high boost condition is very momentary on the Honda Engine.
I'm not disagreeing with the use of such high boost pressure in some cases. I just believe that most of the time it's one bar less, with more conventional A:F levels for max power.
What is your support of excessive air, knowing well that more power is required to pump this air resulting in higher temperatures?

This has been discussed to death already.

One advantage of running lean is running a SI (stratified injection) combustion. Reduces heat loss to the cylinder wall. This both reduces cooling requirements and increases thermal efficiency.

[Vortex37]

I've been saying that that 3+ Bar Boost is correct right from the start. As I know that it is.

Anyway, I suspect PO and VO are Pressure of Oil and Volume of Oil (litres in the tank) as these are absolutely critical data for dyno running.

The most interesting thing in that video is that they have 'blurred out' the turbine housing suggesting that it may be something a bit more trick than just a double inlet housing.

Perhaps the 'lump' on the top of the housing in the first picture is some sort of integrated wastegate housing or other type of pressure control system as I dont see a wastegate anywhere else in the exhaust system.

I did a very quick bit of manipulation on some screen grabs that I took. They are here on a dropcanvas for download. First of all we need to be very cynical after the Mercedes curved ball, and hey the Japanese love baseball

Having said that, I think the lump on the compressor side (white thing with connectors) is a BOV. Yes I am still sticking with that concept. You can also see from my pics, that the compressor has two impellers, each driving a separate motor/gen. I would assume that the larger unit is the generator, and the smaller one a motor. Of course assume and..... I know that I and somebody else mentioned the ideas of dual windings, concentric motors etc. So Honda go for simple, and have two units. This means that if they have a partial ERS failure they can still drive the compressor electrically, as mentioned in the Limebeer paper and video ( see main engine thread ) The turbine has had the second impeller section removed from the graphic cutaway. So it looks like those of us that suggested that they might be using the Garrett "Dual Boost" technology turbine, are possibly correct. Maybe even Triple boost?

Of course the engineers at Honda-Sakura, probably read all the stuff in this forum, and decided to have some amusement, just like every other engineer.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ultra small compressor! and MGUH!
Must be Mixed flow for real, seeing how small it is.

It doesn't look that small to me. Ultra small diameter housing with the volute wrapped into the concave part of the wheel profile. The wheel itself is almost as big as the housing (diametrically). Contrast with the Mercedes compressor housing shown elsewhere with the entire diffuser and volute radially outwards from the wheel tip.

Imagine... it could have a "folded" housing.

[gruntguru]

Why the difference in temperature of the exhaust from left to right?

I am no engine specialist but it's not strange to me. The engine, especially single turbo engine, is asymmetrical so the behaviour of banks may be different.

Not that different. Under full power every cylinder would be tuned to be near identical.

At part load it is possible one bank is run at a higher load than the other. This may improve blowdown recovery from the turbine - strong pressure pulses to one side of the split turbine housing.

[Honda fan]

Ultra small compressor! and MGUH!
Must be Mixed flow for real, seeing how small it is.

It doesn't look that small to me. Ultra small diameter housing with the volute wrapped into the concave part of the wheel profile. The wheel itself is almost as big as the housing (diametrically). Contrast with the Mercedes compressor housing shown elsewhere with the entire diffuser and volute radially outwards from the wheel tip.

Imagine... it could have a "folded" housing.

This layout is what Tetsuo Tsugawa created. Perhaps it is due to his imagination. I believe that it is not the real thing. By the way he had once worked as a mechanic of Benetton.



I am not good at English. I use the automatic translation. It may not be well represented.

[Honda fan]

Arai told to Japanese media. "We're planning to put new PU to the Belgium Grand Prix. It is no exaggeration to say completely new."

http://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/moto ... /29/f1_93/(Japanese)

[FW17]

[a1b2i3r45]

Arai told to Japanese media. "We're planning to put new PU to the Belgium Grand Prix. It is no exaggeration to say completely new."

http://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/moto ... /29/f1_93/(Japanese)

"Meanwhile, the gentleman's agreement of closure of the factory for two weeks F1 team is carried out, the agreement not subject to the power unit manufacturers, without rest development is continued. Even Honda Institute of Tochigi Prefecture Sakura City, is entering the homestretch work towards the large updates turned to the Belgian GP."

Pardon the google translation.

[GoranF1]

It is no exaggeration to say completely new."

did he used those exact words?