Formula One's Engine Crisis

[Jolle]

I still think the prius engines are the problem. Go back to real racing engines.

Wasnt it renault that played a large part in driving the change to the V6t? Im glad they are getting what they deserve, but i also feel the change to these crap engines has hurt the sport a lot.

I don't agree, the departure of engine suppliers/manufacturers began in 2009, when BMW, Toyots and Honda called it quits.

But I do believe that opening the regs a bit more could open the door for Cosworth and other companies again. I could see a co-produced engine between Samsung and Toyota or GM for instance.

[dans79]

I'm interested to hear your logic as to how it would just "work itself out" when clearly it didn't work last time...

None of the cost cap measures have worked, because teams just shifted resources to other areas that gave them a competitive advantage. Take the short noses of this year and last, some teams have gone through several rounds of R&D, & testing till they got a nose that could meet the crash test requirements. I'd be shocked if it yielded more than a 10th's worth of lap time, and probably cost millions.


if a company wants to stay in business it finds a way to cut costs , or make more money. The overly tight rules, and cost cutting measure have made it next to impossible for small to mid-sized teams to do either. They can't cut costs by running old or second rate engines, parts, or customer cars, and they can't increase revenue, because moving up the order requires an exponential increase in operating overhead do to the tight rules.

[sgth0mas]

I still think the prius engines are the problem. Go back to real racing engines.

Wasnt it renault that played a large part in driving the change to the V6t? Im glad they are getting what they deserve, but i also feel the change to these crap engines has hurt the sport a lot.

I don't agree, the departure of engine suppliers/manufacturers began in 2009, when BMW, Toyots and Honda called it quits.

But I do believe that opening the regs a bit more could open the door for Cosworth and other companies again. I could see a co-produced engine between Samsung and Toyota or GM for instance.

The V6t has sent the cost of engines soaring for an inferior product from a racing and spectacle standpoint.

Look at how many engines everyone but mercedes are burning through. The races are inferior in all ways now...last year i promised myself i wouldnt go to an F1 GP until the race cars sound better than the safety car. I was almost embarassed to bring friends to the US GP last year because even NASCAR is now a better spectacle.

If there was truly a benefit to roadcar development the big boys would be getting in the game...and honda obviously proved how costly a mistake that can be.

GM/Chevy has indy, nascar and a load of other smaller series.

Ford knows le mans is the proper way to go for roadcar development and marketing.

Toyota is all over motorsport (even nascar) and obviously is learning from honda.

VW...well we know their stance and its very openly that theres no value in it.

Nissan...they can even make it on Le Mans...

Who would ever think getting into F1 as an engine supplier is a good idea?

[Vettel Maggot]

Pretty sad situation F1 finds itself in, by pretending it is some sort of proving ground for future technology it has ended up with hugely more expensive boring sounding engines, cars that are slow and drivers that are cruising around saving fuel and tyres. Then there is the minor issue of if you don't have a Mercedes engine you may as well not bother as you can hardly develop the engine anyway.

I almost want it to fold completely so we can start again. Bring back mechanical grip, noise and get rid of the banks of engineers sitting out the back monitoring lap tops. Make them 1000hp go karts and heavily reliant on driver skill again. If I never heard Hamilton's engineer on the radio ever again I would be a happy man.

[horse]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the new engine formula other than it is so advanced that some of our greatest engineering businesses couldn't work out how to build them properly. Mercedes have shown that you can create a fast, reliable and extremely efficient racing engine. Are they still worried about fuel saving?

The noise thing is a tricky one. I like classic F1 noises, but these are now a thing of the past, and that's really OK with me. The V6s could be noisy again if they let them have higher RPM, I am sure. But again, when costs are so high, I don't think its going to happen soon. Anyway, look at FE - the noises of the future are different.

[knabbel]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the new engine formula other than it is so advanced that some of our greatest engineering businesses couldn't work out how to build them properly. Mercedes have shown that you can create a fast, reliable and extremely efficient racing engine. Are they still worried about fuel saving?

The noise thing is a tricky one. I like classic F1 noises, but these are now a thing of the past, and that's really OK with me. The V6s could be noisy again if they let them have higher RPM, I am sure. But again, when costs are so high, I don't think its going to happen soon. Anyway, look at FE - the noises of the future are different.

I agree with a large part, as an engineer and engine freak I love the new engines, they are so incredibly advanced and complex. If you compare fuel usage and power to the older V8 then there you can only say they made a huge step. (unless you compare the honda's )

The problem is 2 fold. First the V8's were already quite old and completely developed, there was not a lot of room left for optimization. And there fore we should allow the manufacturers some time to optimize the new engine. But there comes the second problem around the corner, the strict rules for upgrades and updates. If an engine manufacturer made a design error on the basis of the engine then it's not really possible to design and build a complete new engine.

[horse]

But there comes the second problem around the corner, the strict rules for upgrades and updates. If an engine manufacturer made a design error on the basis of the engine then it's not really possible to design and build a complete new engine.

Thanks knabbel, yeah, this is totally the point and I think this is what @Jolle was getting at as well. I really think the development process for this round of engines is flawed and they need to think again. Probably they should give each manufacturer more, but also they should allow the same number of changes as everyone else has had for anyone wanting to join with a new engine.

[graham.reeds]

Why didn't they do what the le mans series did for engines? It would be like the eighties with I4t, V10, etc.

The Le Mans is fuel limited as well.

I could run a Merc engine at Le Mans but not a Porsche engine in F1. Why not?

[emaren]

This is yet another round of 'unintended consequences'.

'Let's cut costs by limiting the number of pieces you can change in a year on the engine and meanwhile limit the number of engines you can use per year.... '

Leads to insane amounts of analysis, prototyping, dyno and computation work on the pieces before they make it to the track.

The cost per unit becomes insane, the cost of getting something slightly wrong becomes catastrophic and pretty much unrecoverable within reasonable timescales.

Personally I prefer the LeMans engine formula, run whatever you want within reason but you are fuel limited.....

[Cold Fussion]

Why didn't they do what the le mans series did for engines? It would be like the eighties with I4t, V10, etc.

The Le Mans is fuel limited as well.

I could run a Merc engine at Le Mans but not a Porsche engine in F1. Why not?

If you ran the Merc PU at Le Mans it would more than likely be completely noncompetitive.

[bhall II]

Get your head around that one... when was the last time the teams ever unanimously agreed on anything???

Double points?

2008 F1 team resources

Including sponsorship, supplier deals, prize money, team owner contributions, tyre provision and supply of customer engines where appropriate.

Toyota: $445.6m
McLaren: $433.3m
Ferrari: $414.9m
Honda: $398.1m
Renault: $393.8m
BMW Sauber: $366.8m
Red Bull Racing: $164.7m
Williams: $160.6m
Toro Rosso: $128.2m
Force India: $121.85m
Super Aguri: $45.6m

Total: $3,073.45m

F1 2015 team budgets:

1. Red Bull Racing (€266m + €35.7m + €167m) = €468.7m [$528 million]
2. Mercedes (€122m + €212.4m + €133m) = €467.4m [$526 million]
3. McLaren Honda (€144.5m + €216.5m + €104m) = €465m [$524 million]
4. Ferrari (€208.5m + €34.5m + €175m) = €418m [$471 million]
5. Williams (€52.5m + €22.9m + €111m) = €186.4m [$210 million]
6. Lotus (€69.5m + €13.6m + €56m) = €139.1m [$157 million]
7. Toro Rosso (€68m + €9.45m + €60m) = €137.45m [$155 million]
8. Force India (€49.5m + €12.2m + €68m) = €129.7m [$146 million]
9. Sauber (€44m + €9.25m + €50m) = €103.25m [$116 million]
10. Manor (€0.5m + €32.5m + €50m) = €83m [$93 million]

TOTALS: (€1025m + €599m +€974m) = €2598m [$3 billion]

Ten teams in 2015 are set to spend what 11 teams spent in 2008.

Restrictions are expensive, because they force all teams to pursue the same expertise. Or you can think about it in terms of supply and demand: if you reduce the areas in which teams can find performance, finding performance becomes more expensive.

I think the sport needs to be less concerned with costs and more concerned with value. Teams are now spending more money on slower cars, and that doesn't make one lick of sense. But, that's what happens with rules specifically designed to cater to the marketing interests of multinational corporations.

The endgame should be what happens on-track, not what happens to an automaker's bottom line.


What does Sauber get out of this?

[FoxHound]

Ben,

Isn't what happens on track a byproduct of an automakers involvement? If that's the case, hasn't it always been the case?

[Facts Only]

Why didn't they do what the le mans series did for engines? It would be like the eighties with I4t, V10, etc.

The Le Mans is fuel limited as well.

I could run a Merc engine at Le Mans but not a Porsche engine in F1. Why not?

I keep reading this sort of thing and its utter nonsense, you would maybe get a couple of different layouts in the first year or so but then when half the field relaisesd that their layout was wrong and they were getting thrashed they will change to the winning (correct) layout.

Back in the days of the 3l Formula with no layout rules how many layouts were there by the end? one, V10. Why? Because that is the best layout.

Lets look at the current situation, Renault and Honda are using exactly the same layout as the best two engines and they are still miles behind and getting hammered. How much worse would it be if there was just a blank sheet? Mercedes would have absolutely obliterated them and Honda and Renault would have had to start again at great expense on a massively compressed timeframe.

[Andres125sx]

Ten teams in 2015 are set to spend what 11 teams spent in 2008.

Restrictions are expensive, because they force all teams to pursue the same expertise. Or you can think about it in terms of supply and demand: if you reduce the areas in which teams can find performance, finding performance becomes more expensive.

Are you being demagoge in purpose or it´s unintended? Sorry Bhall, but I know your knownledge goes way beyond this

Ten teams in 2015 are set to spend what 11 teams spent in 2008 because PU are completely new with unknown technology and new R&D is needed, not because of restrictions as you said. Cost increase has nothing to do with restrictions, but with the need to develop completely new PUs.


This new PU are expensive, true, but in few seasons costs will go down masively. First of all, today any team need to develop a new PU what is very expensive, or buy a new PU what is expensive too, specially because there is no old PUs due to the new formula. But in few seasons small teams will be able to buy old spec PUs at much affordable prices. Today that´s not posible because there is no old PUs but also because difference between 2014 and 2015 PU is huge, they´re so new only one season development is more than enough to make past season PUs useless. Ask Manor about 2014 Ferrari PU, they were supposed to use 2015 unit mid season and supposedly it would have improved their laptimes more than 2 seconds. This means not even midfielders can use past season PUs becasue they´re too slow, so they´re forced to buy current spec units, and that´s expensive.

But in few seasons differences from season to season will be much smaller, so small teams and even midfielders will be able to compete with old spec units decently, at much more affordable prices. As always.

Let say it this way, difference between 2015 Ferari PU and 2015 Mercedes PU is bigger than difference between 2018 Mercedes PU and 2017 Ferrari PU, so for example Sauber is paying today for a new PU (expensive) and even so they´re not competitive, while in 2018 they will buy an old PU (much more affordable), and even so they will be much more competitive than currently


There´s no problem with new formula, only that it´s new. Some time to normalize is needed, that´s all

[bhall II]

Isn't what happens on track a byproduct of an automakers involvement? If that's the case, hasn't it always been the case?

What happens on-track is a byproduct of the rules, and the current rules are a byproduct of ill-considered decisions to increase automaker participation and reduce costs. Even if either one of those ideas was sensible given F1's history and machinations, they still constitute an impossible task.

"The man who serves two masters serves none."

Most people don't care about the logos on the cars; they just want compelling racing, and this formula has been a disaster on that front. After all, who wants to watch a contest in which the outcome has already been decided due to rules that stifle efforts to shift competitive balance? The 2014, 2015, and 2016 World Championships were decided between 2011 and 2013, because the rules artificially accelerate the onset of diminished returns.

Give me 20 cars powered by Cosworth, Ricardo, etc, in a competitive environment that features relaxed rules centered around ideas focused solely on racing, and the resultant series would annihilate Formula 1, because that spirit is exactly what made Formula 1 special in the first place. (It would probably be cheaper, too.)