Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ReoPTy]

Thanks for proving my point, keep up the good work!

Ps you do realise Renault actually threatened to quit if the FiA didn't introduce the turbo hybrids right?

oh so while 4 years renault was winning and they treated to quit ?

nope, it was mercedes ! you can google mercedes !

of course renault didn't went against it !

Do you enjoy being wrong?

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1 ... -rages-on/

Renault is threatening to pull out of Formula 1 if the much-discussed new 1.6-litre, four-cylinder turbo engine formula for 2013 is not soon confirmed by the FIA. Many people in F1 believe the new formula will be put off for a year or two, and some hope the FIA will relent and opt instead for a turbo V6. Following more than a year’s discussions with the teams and engine suppliers, the FIA is expected to make a decision on delaying the new formula by the end of the month.

Renault is the only enthusiastic supporter of the tiny turbo concept, which has failed to attract interest from new manufacturers. Both Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz prefer V8s or at least V6s, and everyone is worried about the costs of building and developing new engines. Still, FIA president Jean Todt is a big proponent of the small-capacity turbo and with Renault’s strong support he may insist on that formula. McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has been deeply involved in formal talks about the new formula and discussed the matter in Montréal.

good , you googled a day to find a official PR renault statement renault would quit without V6 and you failed, Bouiller is Lotus PR so talk for his church and maybe renault four cylinder turbo "with road car in mind, renault doesn't sells v6", what you found? Todt push to V6 and whitmarsh Mclaren , Mercedes ferrari too and Lotus too!

renault was looking a V4, four cylinders turbo engine, great , they failed to push thier ideas through, they didn't quit the F1!

now google mercedes threat to quit F1 without V6 F1 , you ll find much more

[wuzak]

renault was looking a V4, four cylinders turbo engine, great , they failed to push thier ideas through, they didn't quit the F1!

It was originally an in-line 4, but was changed after VAG said they wouldn't enter F1.

[djos]

oh so while 4 years renault was winning and they treated to quit ?

nope, it was mercedes ! you can google mercedes !

of course renault didn't went against it !

Do you enjoy being wrong?

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1 ... -rages-on/

Renault is threatening to pull out of Formula 1 if the much-discussed new 1.6-litre, four-cylinder turbo engine formula for 2013 is not soon confirmed by the FIA. Many people in F1 believe the new formula will be put off for a year or two, and some hope the FIA will relent and opt instead for a turbo V6. Following more than a year’s discussions with the teams and engine suppliers, the FIA is expected to make a decision on delaying the new formula by the end of the month.

Renault is the only enthusiastic supporter of the tiny turbo concept, which has failed to attract interest from new manufacturers. Both Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz prefer V8s or at least V6s, and everyone is worried about the costs of building and developing new engines. Still, FIA president Jean Todt is a big proponent of the small-capacity turbo and with Renault’s strong support he may insist on that formula. McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has been deeply involved in formal talks about the new formula and discussed the matter in Montréal.

good , you googled a day to find a official PR renault statement renault would quit without V6 and you failed, Bouiller is Lotus PR so talk for his church and maybe renault four cylinder turbo "with road car in mind, renault doesn't sells v6", what you found? Todt push to V6 and whitmarsh Mclaren , Mercedes ferrari too and Lotus too!

renault was looking a V4, four cylinders turbo engine, great , they failed to push thier ideas through, they didn't quit the F1!

now google mercedes threat to quit F1 without V6 F1 , you ll find much more

You are still very very wrong, Renault confirmed it:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/11/t ... ing-in-f1/

Caubet also confirms that Renault threatened to pull out of F1 altogether if the new generation 2014 engine wasn’t introduced, “We pushed the FIA to conclude on new regulation – concluded in June. Either the new regulation is clear and we will stay in F1 or we keep the same engine and Renault will stop,” he said. 


“We took the decision to stay in F1 only if the new engine was relevant and the new regulation was relevant.
 We now start the race with 170kg of fuel. In 2014 we will start the race with 130kg – nearly 35% less. Each year we are pushing to decrease the fuel consumption by 5%. It’s difficult to reach this goal.

as did Jean Todt of the FiA:

http://www.formula1nexus.com/renault-th ... d-in-2013/

Now it’s come out, however, that the idea for the smaller powerplants was originally proposed by one of the major manufacturers, i.e. Renault. “It was them who proposed the rules that the FIA accepted,” FIA president Jean Todt recently told Spanish newspaper Diario Sport. “The proposal didn’t fall out of the sky, but instead we had 11 meetings with all the representatives from the engine makers involved.”

Now Renault, getting wind of the FIA’s about-face on their about-face, are threatening to quit if the new tech regs aren’t adopted. If I talk to Renault,” said Todt, “they say that if we don’t introduce this engine for 2013 they will leave F1; if I talk to Mercedes and Ferrari, they ask me to delay the introduction for a few years. They aren’t against the rules, they just wanted them postponed.”

Time for you to raise the white flag methinks!

[ReoPTy]

well whiteflagger, you missed the first sentence

The FIA has been trying to paint a greener image for Formula 1 during the last few years (as if anyone would mistake an F1 car for being energy efficient). Theoretically, the move to 1.6 litre four cylinder turbo engines (which would replace the current 2.4 litre naturally aspirated V8s) was a step towards the green.
Renault, of course, unlike some of the other manufacturers who participate in the sport, actually stand to gain something by promoting a smaller, four cylinder engine.

After all, Renault, unlike Ferrari or Mercedes, doesn’t have a road car business based on high performance or luxury sedan models. Of the major manufacturers they are the brand are most closely associated with anemic economy models. But this goes deeper than brand. Part of the rationale for a manufacturer to participate in F1 in the first place is the trickle down effect of R&D. Gizmos developed for the track often find their way to the street

Todt push to engine change, as ferrari mercedes etc ... was for a V6 , renault threat to quit F1 if FIA advantage mercedes ferari road car "v6" rather thier road car four cylinders turbo as first FIA planned, mercedes threat to quit F1 if its not V6, FIA follow mecedes, renault didn't quit F1

witch words you don't understand? renault never pushed for a V6 used by challengers, they doesn't build into thier own industry while they were winning with V8!

[djos]

Get over it mate, now you are just conflating unrelated things to hide the fact that you are wrong about Renault forcing the issue of small hybrid PU's by threatening to quit.

I even posted Renault confirming this and you are still refusing to acknowledge this.

Btw, nice negative rep there mate, clearly I'm not the only one who can see thru your b.s.

[FoxHound]

.....wrong about Renault forcing the issue of small hybrid PU's by threatening to quit.

I even posted Renault confirming this and you are still refusing to acknowledge this.

I have to say, this was not an outright quit threat.

Renault were winning with archaic V8's in a rosey frozen in patch with Red Bull. What Renault wanted was what happened prior to the freeze, a new formula reflecting the move by all engine makers and racing series to downsize and implement new technologies. It is F1, they should be forging the path, not using age old frozen in V8's.
There was chatter, but Ghosn is clearly not saying if we dont get what we want we will quit.

V6's do not fit Renault's demographic. 4 cylinder petrol and diesel turbo's do.
Yet Renault were happy to go with V6's which indicates clearly they were willing for compromise.

In relation to Red Bull this year, I see no correlation. Nor do I see why being subjected to 5 years of frozen engines is the same as having a less better engine than your opponent for 2 years.

[djos]

Fox, how is this not an outright threat by Renault to leave?

Caubet also confirms that Renault threatened to pull out of F1 altogether if the new generation 2014 engine wasn’t introduced, “We pushed the FIA to conclude on new regulation – concluded in June. Either the new regulation is clear and we will stay in F1 or we keep the same engine and Renault will stop,” he said. 


It doesn't get clearer than that!

Keep V8 = leave
New small turbo = stay

EDIT: Caubet confirmed all of this in Nov 2011 AFTER the regulations had been finalised - the Regs went thru in June 2011:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/11/t ... ing-in-f1/

[djos]

Renault were winning with archaic V8's in a rosey frozen in patch with Red Bull. What Renault wanted was what happened prior to the freeze, a new formula reflecting the move by all engine makers and racing series to downsize and implement new technologies. It is F1, they should be forging the path, not using age old frozen in V8's.
There was chatter, but Ghosn is clearly not saying if we dont get what we want we will quit.

V6's do not fit Renault's demographic. 4 cylinder petrol and diesel turbo's do.
Yet Renault were happy to go with V6's which indicates clearly they were willing for compromise.

In relation to Red Bull this year, I see no correlation. Nor do I see why being subjected to 5 years of frozen engines is the same as having a less better engine than your opponent for 2 years.

Fox whether or not you choose to see correlations is irrelevant, you can say RBR threatening to quit over engines is different to Renault threatening to quit over engines all you like but it's absolutely no different.

And for the record i'm not advocating for different engines for customer teams including V8's.

imo if an OEM chooses to enter F1 and make a PU, they should provide the current spec to all as a condition of entry - that's an FiA failure tho, not the OEM's and I can understand them not liking the rules being changed 2 years after their introduction.

anyway back on topic, the irony here is truly delicious, Renault wanted new engines and then utterly failed to invest enough in them to be competitive.

Essentially Renault needs to either invest in the right people and technologies to bring their PU up to par, or slink away with their tails between their legs. It's the old tale of "be careful what you wish for", in this case they got what they wanted and then got totally thrashed by their competitors who did a much better job!

[ReoPTy]

Renault wanted new engines, yes as all manufacturers , renault wanted a V6 ? nope, they didn't , they doesn't use it on road cars, but Mercedes yes, ferrari Yes!

F1 committed to using more fuel-efficient engines back in 2009, and a senior figure at Daimler, Mercedes's parent company, has now revealed that the decision convinced the team to stay in the sport, even though other marques, including BMW and Toyota were leaving.

Professor Dr Thomas Weber, who oversees research and development at Daimler, told the BBC that the new rules meant that technology used for F1 could also be applied to road car development.

"The key challenge for the future is fuel economy and efficiency and with the change in regulations F1 is the spearhead for development," he said.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/f1-2 ... v6-engines

[djos]

Renault wanted new engines, yes as all manufacturers , renault wanted a V6 ? nope, they didn't , they doesn't use it on road cars, but Mercedes yes, ferrari Yes!

F1 committed to using more fuel-efficient engines back in 2009, and a senior figure at Daimler, Mercedes's parent company, has now revealed that the decision convinced the team to stay in the sport, even though other marques, including BMW and Toyota were leaving.

Professor Dr Thomas Weber, who oversees research and development at Daimler, told the BBC that the new rules meant that technology used for F1 could also be applied to road car development.

"The key challenge for the future is fuel economy and efficiency and with the change in regulations F1 is the spearhead for development," he said.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/f1-2 ... v6-engines

I never said they wanted the v6, i said they wanted a small turbo hybrid and when that meant v6 to get Mercedes and Ferrari backing, that is what they campaigned for.

I know English isn't your first language, but you need to work on your comprehension skills!

Try fixating on the salient facts, not making up your own straw men, you'll just turn this place into a fire hazard.

[FoxHound]

DJos,

You are saying that Renault wanting to develop an engine, and waiting over 3 years to do so respectfully.....is the same as....complaining that cannot win because you dont have the best engine after a year, and that you'll quit if you don't get one.

Even then, Renault are doing a V6.

You have to ask yourself this....what are Renault doing in F1....if they are not to be allowed to develop an engine. There is no point them being there.
It would be the same as Red Bull being asked to freeze their aero and chassis development, whilst engines became the only differentiator.
There is completely no correlation Red Bull quit threats,

[Phil]

You have to ask yourself this....what are Renault doing in F1....if they are not to be allowed to develop an engine. There is no point them being there.

What are sponsors doing in F1 or any place? They don't develop anything either. Figure that one out, and you just might figure out why Renault among hundreds of other companies are in F1.

[jure]

You have to ask yourself this....what are Renault doing in F1....if they are not to be allowed to develop an engine. There is no point them being there.

What are sponsors doing in F1 or any place? They don't develop anything either. Figure that one out, and you just might figure out why Renault among hundreds of other companies are in F1.

Seriously? Other companies are here for marketing purposes. What kind of marketing is it when Mercedes engined car drives away from Renault engined car like the latter had gp2 engine? Does it make Renault cars more popular? That's why for Renault it's either develop and be competitive or leave. Other companies are not so much associated with car performance, that's why they have no such worries.

[FoxHound]

You have to ask yourself this....what are Renault doing in F1....if they are not to be allowed to develop an engine. There is no point them being there.

What are sponsors doing in F1 or any place? They don't develop anything either. Figure that one out, and you just might figure out why Renault among hundreds of other companies are in F1.

Phil,

If your view places sponsors like Infiniti on the same plateau as proper old school F1 engine makers like Renault, and you cannot see the difference, then either you are being obtuse or this clearly explains your predilection with equivalence of engines and nothing else.

Let me make the question crystal clear for you.

Why would an entity involved with F1 in a technical capacity, stay in the sport when it's technical expertise are frozen?
There is no requirement for them, and opens the spec engine can of worms. The rudimentary lumping of an engine supplier as a "sponsor", does not explain a damn thing.

If we extend this line of thought to the entire Formula, with competitors(read sponsors) frozen into multiple year old designs, this should then satisfy your logic.

Instantaneously, F1 fails to become a competition of man and machine. Or even Formula One.

[Phil]

Easy; for marketing reasons and exposure. It's enough to have a Renault engine in the back of the car irregardless how demanding the regulations are as long as its there and can be used for marketing exposure. It's why hundreds of other companies are interested in sponsoring F1 or F1 teams; Because it gets them exposure which in turn strengthens their brand through awareness.

Even Infinity as a technical sponsor - even if they do squat, being associated with the winning team gets a lot of positive exposure. They pay [as part of being a sponsor], so they get to reap the rewards through exposure. That's the logic in it and it answers your question right there.

If it's not for marketing reasons, then they do it as a means of profit - or both. Because it's a simple business deal; You are being payed for a part you supply. This is effectively what engine manufacturers have been doing for years - engine manufacturers like Renault themselves who at some point didn't have an own factory team and were mere suppliers.

I'm not sure how it could be any different. Renault are currently not a factory team. Yet, they were in favor of new engine rules. I suspect not because they liked the challenge or wanted to prove they were better (which is an unknown), but perhaps because outside dynamics changed and they wanted more road relevancy in a market that is changing to that direction. Maybe because somewhere down the line, Renault knew that the board is difficult economic times are less keen to be associated with "throwing out money in expensive F1" if it has squat to do with their road cars. So on some level, more road relevancy was something they wanted and deemed to be important on their road map.

I'm not sure however where you get the idea that every company is in F1 to compete on every single aspect. I think Renault more than any other engine manufacturer is facing the hard truth that perhaps this new formula is not suited to them and they don't have the means to pump millions into making these engines better for little reward. The first question is; Do they believe they can close that gap, the second; could they win and the third; how much of that will translate to actual sales.

For Mercedes, it's win/win so far. They're loving it. Renault... not so much. They have a huge mountain to climb.