Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Facts Only]

One thing I have noticed between the Honda and the Merc is the way the blocks are built. It looks like the Honda block is a casting or forged. The Mercedes block almost looks to be billet. Even if it isn't billet it surely has a lot of machine work done to the outside that is clearly evident, if it is billet then I have no idea how they would manage to make it that complex on the inside.

Every single reciprocating piston engine I've ever seen is cast.

Yes, non-cast blocks are well known in motorsports but like you I've not seen it in F1 on the track.

That's a machined-from-solid timing cover in image "MERCEDES (2014)" not the block I believe, which I'd expect to be cast

Its called a crankcase in F1 engine circles, upper and lower split horizontally on the crank centreline rather than a block and sump is pretty standard. The merc' unit is fully machined from billet.
Stressed parts are often shot peened after machining to reduce stress, and the surface finish then looks like a high quality casting.

[dren]

http://s.dropcanvas.com/1000000/599000/ ... urbine.jpg

A very quick bit of manipulation of Lieo's pic, is revealing. Is that a ceramic blade? Or is this a picture from a broken unit? The angle looks very strange. Twin turbine linked to a common shaft?

It does, doesn't it. Perhaps a ceramic coating instead of fully ceramic?

[PlatinumZealot]

The steel honda uses for the exhaust piping also has a dull blue colour. Never seen that before..

[wuzak]

One thing I have noticed between the Honda and the Merc is the way the blocks are built. It looks like the Honda block is a casting or forged. The Mercedes block almost looks to be billet. Even if it isn't billet it surely has a lot of machine work done to the outside that is clearly evident, if it is billet then I have no idea how they would manage to make it that complex on the inside.

Every single reciprocating piston engine I've ever seen is cast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfcW7cbn1HE

[Wazari]

I would think they are all using forged billet crankcases.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Renault is cast for sure.
Was confirmed after photo evidence in the Engine thread.

The Ferrari we still aren't sure.

And other than regular billet why would a team go as far as forging a big ole chunk of metal only to machine so much off of it? There would be so much residual stresses built up... It is the first time I am hearing about forged engine blocks (if there is such a thing), but I don't see the advantage of forging an engine block since it would be so heavily machined... why can't it just be regular billet from the mill? Why must it be forged? It is hard to imagine how you would forge something so complex as an engine block too. Anyone can explain?

[Wazari]

The billets are forged rather than using a cast billet. A billet is just a chunk of metal. Forged billet crankcases have typically 30% more tensile strength and 60% more yield strength over a conventional cast crankcase. A cast piece has the advantage that a skin is usually formed on the outer surface that is more durable than the rest of the casting itself. However many times that surface is removed in certain areas that are further machined or polished making it necessary to peen those areas.

If memory serves me correct, nitro burning drag racers were the first to use forged billets in engine blocks. Those blocks are subject to enormous amounts of stress due to the outrageous amounts of instant HP they produce and the huge amounts of reciprocating mass inside those things because of their huge displacement.

[Tommy Cookers]

..... Forged billet crankcases have typically 30% more tensile strength and 60% more yield strength over a conventional cast crankcase.
..... If memory serves me correct, nitro burning drag racers were the first to use forged billets in engine blocks.

presumably F1 engines don't use conventional casting techniques ....
they use every possible advanced casting technique and material, vacuum remelt, special sand/binder, investment or whatever

yes, cast billet (its size means very slow cooling) will probably have worse through mechanical properties than a basic cast block
forging 'only' enhances mechanical properties relative to basic manufacturing techniques that depress the mechanical properties
your forged billet will have these enhanced properties (over the basic) etc essentially in 1 direction (not all directions)
forging will also depress the mechanical properties normal to the favoured direction
as fundamentally, forging is a process of certain directional orientation of the good mechanical properties

the cheapest and reliable way of making 1 or 2 etc blocks is to machine from solid ? - that's how dragsters took that route ?


current F1 engines rules force conservative dimensions and weight, to avoid needing super production methods and material ??

[ojlopez]

http://s.dropcanvas.com/1000000/599000/ ... urbine.jpg

A very quick bit of manipulation of Lieo's pic, is revealing. Is that a ceramic blade? Or is this a picture from a broken unit? The angle looks very strange. Twin turbine linked to a common shaft?

It does, doesn't it. Perhaps a ceramic coating instead of fully ceramic?

I think so too. I don't know if ceramic blades are allowed.

[Vortex37]

......edit...
And other than regular billet why would a team go as far as forging a big ole chunk of metal only to machine so much off of it? There would be so much residual stresses built up... edit......

Just to add. UIT/HFMI is commonly used to relieve internal stress on high performance engine components, as part of the manufacturing process. This process is also used on things as big as bridge girders, so an engine block or crank case would not be much of a problem.

[Brian Coat]

If Merc block is machined from solid as claimed above, that would be a change from the atmo era.

It is not something I was expecting but then life often surprises me ...

How would you optimise the deck/jacket structure with no casting?

[PlatinumZealot]

Hmm. Even though I had already accepted it, I am beginning to wonder if the Mercedes engine is really made from billet. Reason being, we know the Renault is cast as evidenced by garage photos, but the presentation Renault engine is highly polished and looks like billet... could that Mercedes presentation engine be just a highly polished version too? It is hard to look past the auxialliaries to see the actual sides of the engine block.

The Mercedes engine is reported to cost 20 million. It is actually cheaper than the Renault. Now can this cheaper cost be realised with machining from a solid Block of Aluminum?

[Facts Only]

The Merc crankcase is definitely made from billet. I know that for a fact.

[Facts Only]

The Mercedes engine is reported to cost 20 million. It is actually cheaper than the Renault. Now can this cheaper cost be realised with machining from a solid Block of Aluminum?

The £20mil is for 8 engines, supply, development, logistics and support for a whole season. The actual BOM cost of each engine is a very small percentage of that,from the numbers I have seen not even 10%, the difference between casting and machining would have next to no impact on the cost especially when you consider tooling and then there is the fact that it's a loss leader anyway.

[Facts Only]

The Mercedes engine is reported to cost 20 million. It is actually cheaper than the Renault. Now can this cheaper cost be realised with machining from a solid Block of Aluminum?

The £20mil is for 8 engines, supply, development, logistics and support for a whole season. The actual BOM cost of each engine is a very small percentage of that,from the numbers I have seen not even 10%, the difference between casting and machining would have next to no impact on the cost especially when you consider tooling and then there is the fact that it's a loss leader anyway.

The big advantage with machined from solid is the lead times, straight from the CAD office to the in house machine shop no supply chain, no tooling, no transport time and 24/7 CNC work.