Mclaren MP4-31 Honda Speculation Thread

[Big Mangalhit]

So no new parts on the wet test, that is a given. I do wonder, though, is it possible to run the last spec 2015 engine, with all the tokens used, even if the engine was only run last year on a dyno and not on track? Like for instance the full token used 2015 ferrari PU that STR will probably use.

STR will use the Austin spec.

I've seen you say that in the STR topic too, but I also saw other posts saying they will run the dyne upgraded version with all the tokens. Do you have any confirmation it is the Austin spec?

But I guess that is off-topic, my question here was more if theoretically any constructer with spare 2015 tokens that were only homologated in dyno after the end of the season can test them here, since they are in fact still 2015 homologated parts.

[hemichromis]

I don't think so.
First of all it is damm hot inside there, and the charge air will be well heated when entering the compressor.
Secondly if it will be placed there it has to be raised.

It's still in the VEE.

Arai said that cooling ceased to be an issue in the middle of the season.

[GoranF1]

So no new parts on the wet test, that is a given. I do wonder, though, is it possible to run the last spec 2015 engine, with all the tokens used, even if the engine was only run last year on a dyno and not on track? Like for instance the full token used 2015 ferrari PU that STR will probably use.

STR will use the Austin spec.

I tought TR will not be in Pirelli test?

[Big Mangalhit]

So no new parts on the wet test, that is a given. I do wonder, though, is it possible to run the last spec 2015 engine, with all the tokens used, even if the engine was only run last year on a dyno and not on track? Like for instance the full token used 2015 ferrari PU that STR will probably use.

STR will use the Austin spec.

I tought TR will not be in Pirelli test?

It won't I just made everything confusing with my exemple which is even irrelevant to my question.

I just wonder if ferrari, honda and renault could use a version of the engine upgraded with all the tokens left from 2015, even if it was not raced. Since it was homologated in a dyno still counting towards the 2015 season.

I mentioned the STR because some people say they will use that, let's call it "final 2015", engine next year while others say it will be the Austin spec. But again that is irrelevant to my question. I mainly was wondering if at least some test of new parts could be done using this sort of loophole if you want.

[Joseki]

So no new parts on the wet test, that is a given. I do wonder, though, is it possible to run the last spec 2015 engine, with all the tokens used, even if the engine was only run last year on a dyno and not on track? Like for instance the full token used 2015 ferrari PU that STR will probably use.

STR will use the Austin spec.

I've seen you say that in the STR topic too, but I also saw other posts saying they will run the dyne upgraded version with all the tokens. Do you have any confirmation it is the Austin spec?

But I guess that is off-topic, my question here was more if theoretically any constructer with spare 2015 tokens that were only homologated in dyno after the end of the season can test them here, since they are in fact still 2015 homologated parts.

I can post you a few links but are in Italian.

[Mansell89]

The Honda journey is one that fascinates me this season.

Just how realistic is it that they could make a step like Ferrari did from 2014 to 2015? My understanding with Ferrari is that in 2014 they knew their issues, but restrictive development rules and homologation meant that they were unable to focus on the crux of their issue. (I believe electrical deployment?)

Firstly- does that sound about right?



Secondly, if it is- do we think McLaren KNOW their issues like Ferrari did? If so, they would have a good chance of a step forward with their engine, surely? Its just that so many people seem to be writing them off saying they need even longer- yet this is probably the fastest developing powertrain in F1 history, so big gains are there to be made initially?

I'd just love to know a bit more of the technicalities behind everything- people are quick to dismiss Honda- but are they a dark horse?

[GoranF1]

The Honda journey is one that fascinates me this season.

Just how realistic is it that they could make a step like Ferrari did from 2014 to 2015? My understanding with Ferrari is that in 2014 they knew their issues, but restrictive development rules and homologation meant that they were unable to focus on the crux of their issue. (I believe electrical deployment?)

Firstly- does that sound about right?



Secondly, if it is- do we think McLaren KNOW their issues like Ferrari did? If so, they would have a good chance of a step forward with their engine, surely? Its just that so many people seem to be writing them off saying they need even longer- yet this is probably the fastest developing powertrain in F1 history, so big gains are there to be made initially?

I'd just love to know a bit more of the technicalities behind everything- people are quick to dismiss Honda- but are they a dark horse?

How does it feel to be the first man to visit another planet?
Your post clearly suggest you were on Mars during 2015 and only superficially read about Honda problems 10 minutes ago.
Honda problems are clear,indentified on time and major power source in todays F1 PU,whic is ICE is way better than Ferrari had in their first year of V6.
Mclaren will catch Ferrari very soon.

[Mansell89]

The Honda journey is one that fascinates me this season.

Just how realistic is it that they could make a step like Ferrari did from 2014 to 2015? My understanding with Ferrari is that in 2014 they knew their issues, but restrictive development rules and homologation meant that they were unable to focus on the crux of their issue. (I believe electrical deployment?)

Firstly- does that sound about right?



Secondly, if it is- do we think McLaren KNOW their issues like Ferrari did? If so, they would have a good chance of a step forward with their engine, surely? Its just that so many people seem to be writing them off saying they need even longer- yet this is probably the fastest developing powertrain in F1 history, so big gains are there to be made initially?

I'd just love to know a bit more of the technicalities behind everything- people are quick to dismiss Honda- but are they a dark horse?

How does it feel to be the first man to visit another planet?
Your post clearly suggest you were on Mars during 2015 and only superficially read about Honda problems 10 minutes ago.
Honda problems are clear,indentified on time and major power source in todays F1 PU,whic is ICE is way better than Ferrari had in their first year of V6.
Mclaren will catch Ferrari very soon.

Wow, how's that for a welcome, you rude, obnoxious so and so.

I didn't realise that I needed a qualification in engineering to ask a question- perhaps il refrain in future.

My point about them knowing ALL of their problems is that not only did they have deployment issues, their reliability also suffered so presumably that would be a number of smaller issues to deal with.

Anyway, perhaps someone with a little more patience could help out explaining the technicalities of McLarens engine problems, the solutions, and likelihood of success in 2016.

[godlameroso]

They had a theory that they could get by with a smaller turbo/compressor, and when they actually put the engine on a car, they realized that the turbo created too much back pressure, and didn't create enough electricity via the MGU-H. Honda made incremental changes to the ICE, but having used 4 of their 7 tokens available by Canada, did not have enough tokens to upgrade the MGU-H the compressor, nor the turbine. While they kept making incremental improvements to the reliability and power of the ICE, they were essentially stuck with the small turbo, and weak MGU-H, so even though they had a respectable ICE, they were essentially missing 160hp down the straights because they could not deploy the entire lap like other manufacturers. While they were able to use 33.3 seconds per lap, other teams were essentially deploying for ~45-50 seconds per lap, 33.3 from the ES -> MGU-K, and the rest from MGU-H -> MGU-K

[diffuser]

It won't I just made everything confusing with my exemple which is even irrelevant to my question.

I just wonder if ferrari, honda and renault could use a version of the engine upgraded with all the tokens left from 2015, even if it was not raced. Since it was homologated in a dyno still counting towards the 2015 season.

I mentioned the STR because some people say they will use that, let's call it "final 2015", engine next year while others say it will be the Austin spec. But again that is irrelevant to my question. I mainly was wondering if at least some test of new parts could be done using this sort of loophole if you want.

I understand his frustrations, we've been talking this to death for Months. Sorry if we're a little short. See the Honda Power Unit thread. All your questions will be answered.

[pob]

...people are quick to dismiss Honda- but are they a dark horse?

They are dismissed easily because even if they make a Ferrari sized jump in performance, they will still be nowhere near the podium:

^Improvement from 2014 to 2015 according to f1metrics

[Raleigh]

Honda has a lot more room for improvement than Ferrari did, potentially the jump forward could be larger.

Maclaren also have a lot of potential in the car that has been so far untapped due to lack of power.

[pob]

I hope they will improve because it is sad to see two former WDCs at the back, but they need a crazy jump in performance from both the PU and the car to be near the front.

[f1316]

Honda has a lot more room for improvement than Ferrari did, potentially the jump forward could be larger.

Maclaren also have a lot of potential in the car that has been so far untapped due to lack of power.

Yeah, so to expand a little on this, here's speed trap data for Abu Dhabi 2014 and 2015:

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... ap_V01.pdf

https://www.fia.com/file/37211/download?token=AMbbv63R

Top Ferrari in 2014 was 11 kph down whereas top mclaren in 2015 was 27 kph down.

Now obviously this is just a snippet of data and doesn't tell the entire story, but it's a good indication of relative straight line deficit to the class leading PU at the end of respective seasons.

If we take it purely at face value, you could argue that since Honda have more to find, that would also make it more difficult to do so, but the logic seems to back up the idea that very big gains are feasible. It requires us to believe that the ICE is - as Arai claims - pretty much on a par with the Ferrari, but if so then fixing the deployment immediately brings them to same ballpark as Ferrari.

It's also arguable that having even bigger deployment issues than the 2014 Ferrari meant they compromised wing angles even more, meaning there's also more to come chassis side.

So I believe that the 2.0 figure is achievable and also that Alonso is only mentioning because it's what he's been told. Still, given that Mercedes teams last year (judging from the above) found approximately 0.5s , it's likely that mclaren will also need that much more on top of the 2.0 s to be on the pace.

[hemichromis]

Other teams have said that Hondas ICE is very good so that lends credence to the theory that is it only the turbo and ERS that need work.

I am pretty positive that we will see podiums and i'm hoping for a lucky win also!