Regenerative systems (KERS)

[Mazz]

Could they use that system so that if there is a full course yellow, instead of bringing a safety car out, they slow down all the cars on the track at once. This could mean that all the previous gaps would stay the same. I'm thinking they could give a five second warning to the driver so that it doesn't surprise them. The cars that have to slow down from a high speed at that exact point will have a slight advantage over those in the middle of corners. Just a random thought.

[Ciro Pabón]

Yes, Mazz, I think the same as persovik and you: it will be used on pit lane, under yellow and in SC.

I wonder how this goes together with the fly-by-wire prohibition for throttles.

On a side note, cybernetic control systems always remind me these famous words:

"Aircraft manufacturers have tried to fix that problem by designing the pilot out of the cockpit. This is the first fully automated plane, flown by a computer.

Oh.

Oh, no, oh, no, oh, no."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHa3WNerjU

[tomislavp4]

But hey every success comes after numerous unsuccessful attempts

[Ciro Pabón]

Now that you mention that, yes, but hopefully on models, that's the lesson I get from the video.

I wonder why F1 does not try first their radical innovations on lesser series.

[Fiero Brick]

Now that you mention that, yes, but hopefully on models, that's the lesson I get from the video.

I wonder why F1 does not try first their radical innovations on lesser series.

They wouldn't be Formula 1 if they did.

[Mikey_s]

I'll second the comment from Fiero...

The R&D pipeline in F1 is extremely short and the time between getting from concept to implementation is the only way to keep ahead. Trying something out in a lower series would mean it was visible to the competition and, asuming that a development was successful, would let the competition check it out and implement much more quickly - negating any benefit sooner.

[Carlos]

Ciro :
This is probably one of the reasons that Ferrari is consulting on chassis design and supplying engines to A1GP... a perfect opportunity to try out different ideas in another series. Have to wait and see if this is the case.

Watching the video and thinking about that new urban legend, that Hamilton accidently pressed the wrong button, maybe the remote plane's pilot did a Hamilton

If they would have done this test in a CAE aviation simulator ( a Canadian company) they could have saved a lot of money. Then just pressed reset.
The average 10 year old video gamer may have done a a better job of piloting this test

Are we starting to drift OT

[rghai6]

Watching the video and thinking about that new urban legend, that Hamilton accidently pressed the wrong button, maybe the remote plane's pilot did a Hamilton

Are you saying Hamilton does not even drive the car himself ?

Do you think someone else (his dad) is doing the driving as well ?

[riff_raff]

In case you haven't seen the Torotrak KERS CVT regenerative system for F1:

http://motorage.search-autoparts.com/mo ... 110?ref=25

[checkered]

Dumrick posted the

Autosport link I'm going to refer to in the "How to make F1 greener ..." thread, but I'm going to quote it in this context a second time anyway, since I've got a different "spin" on the issue of KERS as a regenerative system. In short, I'm going to let Max Mosley and Luca Marmorini (i.e.) Toyota engine chief do the talking and contrast their statements. I take it that it's no coincidence that Marmorini chose to make public remarks on this issue just three days after Mosley reaffirmed his support of KERS, nor is it a coincidence that Autosprint backed up Marmorini's comments with Mauro Forghieri's dire criticism. The very technical future of F1 seems to be harder fought behind the scenes than a casual observer might appreciate:

Max Mosley still in driving seat, Times Online - February 17th, 2008

(Before retiring) I absolutely want to see KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) working, and to see a clear path to coming up with an ultra-modern high-tech engine for 2013. Technologies such as this will make it easier for the F1-friendly people in the big manufacturers to justify their continued involvement in the sport, because if it accelerates the introduction into road cars, then obviously it’s good for society, and very, very good for the manufacturers.

Toyota engine chief says KERS 'primitive', Autosport - February 20th, 2008

The adoption of energy recovery leaves me rather perplexed because the system chosen by the FIA is really primitive. (They are) extremely simplified compared to the system we have on the Toyota Prius road car, or even on the Toyota Supra HV-R that won the 24 Hours of Tokachi. The potential of hybrid engines is immense, but the solution chosen by the FIA restricts itself to recover energy from the rear wheels. The parameters involved should be more.

Let's say that, if the Supra that races at Tokachi recovers 70% of the dissipated energy, the system chosen for F1 restricts itself to 20%. This system will end up being the same for everyone too, and in this case we'll refer to it as an accessory, devaluing a great technical issue along the way.

Here's also a link to a previous short KERS thread (of my own making, ahem) ... I'm not intending to revive it, but there are a few pertinent links there, not to mention a couple of relly insightful comments about KERS by riff_raff.

[mx_tifoso]

Toyota engine chief says KERS 'primitive', Autosport - February 20th, 2008

The adoption of energy recovery leaves me rather perplexed because the system chosen by the FIA is really primitive. (They are) extremely simplified compared to the system we have on the Toyota Prius road car, or even on the Toyota Supra HV-R that won the 24 Hours of Tokachi. The potential of hybrid engines is immense, but the solution chosen by the FIA restricts itself to recover energy from the rear wheels. The parameters involved should be more.

Let's say that, if the Supra that races at Tokachi recovers 70% of the dissipated energy, the system chosen for F1 restricts itself to 20%. This system will end up being the same for everyone too, and in this case we'll refer to it as an accessory, devaluing a great technical issue along the way.

Luca Marmorini's main point is that the system chosen by the FIA is "really primitive", especially in comparison to systems Toyota has designed and developed for current road car applications.

To which Marmorini refers that the FIA restrictions are for recovery ONLY from the rear wheels, and that this restriction will limit energy recovery to about 20%. It seems to me that he would prefer recovery from both the rear and front wheels, which is how the Supra HV-R recovers energy (not sure about the Prius though).

Making extremely simple assumptions, by involving both the front and rear axles in the recovery process, the expected energy that would be recovered would be about ≥40%. But even though the energy "recovered" would approximately double, the total weight of the car would also increase substantially, since the system would have to increase in size (thus increasing weight naturally) and/ or expanding the system to other areas of the car. Which might be a problem due to the limited amount of free space on the current F1 platform. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In this thread they are discussing KERS in F1, 4 pages total. Great discussion I might add.
Atlas F1 Bulletin Board- Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS)
An extract from the first post:

ATM_Andy wrote:
KERS Rules for 2009:

The use of any device, other than the 2.4 litre, four stroke engine and one KERS, to power the car, is not permitted.

With the exception of one fully charged KERS, the total amount of recoverable energy stored on the car must not exceed 300kJ. Any which may be recovered at a rate greater than 2kW must not exceed 20kJ.

The maximum power, in or out, of any KERS must not exceed 60kW (81bhp). Energy released from the KERS may not exceed 400kJ in any one lap. Measurements will be taken at the connection to the rear wheel drive train.

Any KERS may only be capable of increasing the stored energy whilst the car is moving on the track. Release of power from any such system must remain under the complete control of the driver at all times the car is on the track.

Cars must be fitted with homologated sensors which provide all necessary signals to the SDR in order to verify the requirements above are being respected.

Any components required as part of a KERS will be controled by the SECU

-----
Supercars.net: 2007 Toyota Supra HV-R

[jaho101]

I think they're going to delay KERS on the front wheels until they feel it'll be small enough not to disrupt them. If we end up with gigantic (by F1 standards) devices, aero could take a hit under the on coming regulations.

[Conceptual]

I think they're going to delay KERS on the front wheels until they feel it'll be small enough not to disrupt them. If we end up with gigantic (by F1 standards) devices, aero could take a hit under the on coming regulations.

What a waste of a well thought out message that the board decided to delete on its way to posting...

Whatever, I don't feel like typing it out again...

Chris

[jaho101]

I think they're going to delay KERS on the front wheels until they feel it'll be small enough not to disrupt them. If we end up with gigantic (by F1 standards) devices, aero could take a hit under the on coming regulations.

What a waste of a well thought out message that the board decided to delete on its way to posting...

Whatever, I don't feel like typing it out again...

Chris

You could post the gist of it in point form.

[Conceptual]

I think they're going to delay KERS on the front wheels until they feel it'll be small enough not to disrupt them. If we end up with gigantic (by F1 standards) devices, aero could take a hit under the on coming regulations.

What a waste of a well thought out message that the board decided to delete on its way to posting...

Whatever, I don't feel like typing it out again...

Chris

You could post the gist of it in point form.

Nah, it makes zero difference what I say, the FIA will still screw the pooch at every opportunity.