Nico Rosberg has won the Japanese Grand Prix in a straightforward and controlled way. Vettel briefly looked like a threat until his pitstop strategy failed him. Max Verstappen finished second, just ahead of Lewis Hamilton who had another difficult afternoon.
zac510 wrote:I respectfully disagree. It might have put them in 3rd for a while but he'd have been under a lot of pressure from Hamilton for a lot of laps.
The car reminds me of the Mercedes of a few years ago (2012-13 ish) that used to qualify well and run up the front of the race for the first stint but then fall back by the end as the other cars managed the tyres better during the changing track grip, fuel weight, etc.
Vettel was showing a great pace, both on softt and hard tyres. Yes, Hamilton could have put some pressure on him in the last laps but Suzuka is not an easy track to overtake. We could have seen a good battle but sadly Ferrari decided that we didnt deserve to watch it.
Hamilton was unable to overtake Kimi, but once again, the strategy did the job.
zac510 wrote:I respectfully disagree. It might have put them in 3rd for a while but he'd have been under a lot of pressure from Hamilton for a lot of laps.
The car reminds me of the Mercedes of a few years ago (2012-13 ish) that used to qualify well and run up the front of the race for the first stint but then fall back by the end as the other cars managed the tyres better during the changing track grip, fuel weight, etc.
Vettel was showing a great pace, both on softt and hard tyres. Yes, Hamilton could have put some pressure on him in the last laps but Suzuka is not an easy track to overtake. We could have seen a good battle but sadly Ferrari decided that we didnt deserve to watch it.
Hamilton was unable to overtake Kimi, but once again, the strategy did the job.
The point is, by stopping earlier (I.e. the same lap as Kimi) Vettel would have jumped Verstappen; therefore Hamilton would have been coming up behind Max not Seb (unless Hamilton also undercut Verstappen but that doesn't seem as if it would have been the case) and time spent getting past the mobile chicane would have worked in Vettel's favour.
In any case, regardless of Hamilton who was obviously quicker, the objective was to be in front of Verstappen (I.e. Close gap on RB in constructors) and they had the opportunity to do that and gain track position, since Vettel had slowly closed in throughout both of the first two stints.
Ferrari's car is certainly not fantastic but at this race - plus a couple of others like Hungary - they showed a slight pace advantage on Red Bull but couldn't make it count. That's because RB's strategy is consistently better
SectorOne wrote:
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."
I´m talking about a specific agreement which is not in any regulations.
Yes, and moving in braking zones is covered by that regulation. There's no gentlemen's agreement as such, it's more of a directive from the FIA which they can and do enforce under clause 27.8 of the sporting regulations.
We´re talking about two different things here.
Are we? You said moving in the braking zones was only prohibited by a gentlemen's agreement. That statement is incorrect, it's prohibited by the sporting regulations too, hence the (now withdrawn) Mercedes protest.
Vasconia wrote:
Ferrari's car is certainly not fantastic but at this race - plus a couple of others like Hungary - they showed a slight pace advantage on Red Bull but couldn't make it count. That's because RB's strategy is consistently better
Thats the problem, the team´s bad strategy has ruined most of the races where they should have been in front of RB.
Vettel was not far from Max , so being faster he could have attacked Max. But they changed the tyres too late, when Max had pulled away and at the same time Lewis was just 4-5 seconds behind. The strategy could have not worked worse.
i am just in awe of mercedes . only team that can defeat merc next year is Redbull with merc engine. That is not going to happen soon , i still think merc will retain advantage start of next year and it will diminish slowly over year , hopefully. Rosberg has real chance to clinch WDC (if his car does not blow up).
Manoah2u wrote:Lewis definately making a mess of this weekend all by himself. Should have jumped back on as hard as he could, instead all i seen all weekend was a absolute mess. I don't know where his head's at, but it's not where it should be. The press conference games were an odd thing to see the weekend start with but in the end a clear signal he's not doing what he should - focusing completely on winning and surpassing himself. I don't know what that start was about but it was a real real mess. Atleast he admitted it was a screwup, but well, he lost the race - and a more decent chance at the WDC - by that mess. I feel like it started with the 'test start' from the pitlane. he was taking a lot of time and though he got away fairly well, it all seemed messy to me - or should i say, not flowing well. Lewis, if you lose this WDC, you did it yourself with this weekend mate. Tech issues are out of your own league, but this was a model weekend to do all you could to still grab it.
I think this is overly harsh. Lewis missed pole by less than a tenth a second and to be fair, Rosberg has been the better qualifier here consistently by no matter how small a margin. I therefore conclude that in qualifying at least, Hamilton wasn't more "off" than the past 2 years where arguably he was "on it".
The last two races, if I remember correctly, were won at the start. This year, the starts seem to be quite a lottery, at least in one of those Mercedes. We know Hamilton can ace starts - he has done so more often than not last year and the year before already, yet this year, he seems to have problems with it that are not solely driver related. I think Monza was one of these cases as well - the race lost within less than a second. Same applies here; For whatever reason, the start didn't go according to plan and instead of fighting his team-mate for the win, he found himself down in 8th and at some point 19 seconds off the lead. He narrowed that gap down to 6 seconds by the end of the race, all the while passing cars and being held up by others. Sure, Rosberg didn't have to drive as agressive - he drove with just the right amount of speed to win it comfortably, no doubt he could have driven quicker, - but apart from Lewis start, there was nothing in this weekend (besides the thursday drivers conference) that showed the kind of mess you are talking about.
Losing the race at the start seems to be a constant this year, like it or not. And if you botch the start as he did, there's no way you'll be fighting for the win, even if for the next 95 minutes, he drives with absolute perfection.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
As Vasconia says, Ferrari once again nullified all the effort their drivers put into the car. In case anybody still doubted Alonso's move, he did not do wrong in leaving Ferrari. time will tell if he'll get somewhere with Mclaren, but Ferrari is still nowhere. Not because the car is bad, but because the team makes a mess of it. They've got a supremely experienced WDC in the car, and a 4-time-in-a-row WDC with a fresher motivation, but it's still bringing them nowhere due to a) still not a direct Merc competitor and b) that would not do anything when their team can't do any correct strategy. It's not only in the race, they regularly put their drivers out in traffic during qually too. And i'm surpised at how much they have to change gearboxes, engines, etc. just as well.
Arrivabene's fire and energy of last year, especially with the win, has vanished completely in a worried schoolboy that is heading to exams unprepared and foreseeing bad grades and the paired doom of facing the parents - Marchionne - though i don't think it would do Ferrari any good to ditch Arrivabene and replace him with another - seemingly - incompetent figure, whilst the problem imho doesnt seem to be with ferrari's leadership, rather the way their personnel functions.
As for Lewis, it definately speaks for him that he's still in the competition despite all the amazing 'bullets' fired at him - from their own team at that.
Rosberg has maintained calm and stable throughout the season, with some occasional 'delibarete' moves that are questionable. I don't think he was as 'sneaky' as in 2014, and i think he rather canned or contained/put a lid on his emotions compared to last season - he was visibly riled up last year - and it plays him dividends. He came out superbly strong in the final stages of teh 2015 season, and he seems to repeat that now.
Again, apart from the fact Lewis had a huge amount of misfortune that obviously went in Nico's favor, he's done his side very well and has the WDC coming his way as such.
One may argue that Lewis got 'screwed over double' by the change of engineers at the start of the season - still a tad odd - and his 'odd' amount of breakdowns, he went fairly
emotional when he needed to keep calm and focused. I do believe he went into this year 'overconfident' and thought he'd bag this one like it was nothing, and 'partied' too much
alongside it. the focus and performance he unleashed in Malaysia was absolutely stellar and imho, showed the real Lewis Hamilton, and what he really is able to do. It obviously
was a ginormeous blow to see that engine go up in flames, but it makes me wonder WHY on earth Lewis hasn't engaged in this absolute focus for many more races, and again,
especially japan where he was the total opposite of Malaysia. He had the crowd on his hand in Malaysia, was 'energized' , focused, highly professional in every interview and briefing,
was unreal in Qually and was on it in the race.
I think critisizing Lewis for this weekend is fully in it's place, seeing as his material was absolutely open for his hands to do something to make a difference.
I said it before and i still say it - whether reasonable or not - if Lewis doesn't bag this WDC, he's going to concider going to another team in the really short distance.
Still not ruling out Alonso to Mercedes and Lewis to Ferrari, and then Kimi being put aside and Button stepping back into the Mclaren.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
f1316 wrote:The point is, by stopping earlier (I.e. the same lap as Kimi) Vettel would have jumped Verstappen; therefore Hamilton would have been coming up behind Max not Seb (unless Hamilton also undercut Verstappen but that doesn't seem as if it would have been the case) and time spent getting past the mobile chicane would have worked in Vettel's favour.
In any case, regardless of Hamilton who was obviously quicker, the objective was to be in front of Verstappen (I.e. Close gap on RB in constructors) and they had the opportunity to do that and gain track position, since Vettel had slowly closed in throughout both of the first two stints.
Ferrari's car is certainly not fantastic but at this race - plus a couple of others like Hungary - they showed a slight pace advantage on Red Bull but couldn't make it count. That's because RB's strategy is consistently better
Almost whole season Ferrari has quicker race car with less tire degradation, but still managed to fail through lack of Q pace, incredible strategy and lack of penalties.
max_speed wrote:i am just in awe of mercedes . only team that can defeat merc next year is Redbull with merc engine. That is not going to happen soon , i still think merc will retain advantage start of next year and it will diminish slowly over year , hopefully. Rosberg has real chance to clinch WDC (if his car does not blow up).
I agree, Marko was so cocky after FP (AMuS) and it wasn't even close. Especially in the race: MV talking about pace and tyres problems (radio). They can't blame that on "engine disadvantage in the third sector" which they used to explain big gap in Q. It wasn't all engine in the race and of course Mercedes ran slightly underpowered in Q.
Safe to say Merc will keep some engine advantage in '17 and they have better drivers than RB/F. Interesting thing Perez said (Amus again) that since downforce/grip levels will be bigger engine will be more important = more time on max throttle. Still whoever gets on throttle earlier (better aero corners) should get an advantage
Well I say well driven Max. It was a robust and (just) perfectly timed defence of the inside line nothing more, nothing less. F1 is about fractions and that was judged by fractions!
I also say well done Ham, as that could easily been an airplane crash. We've seen it many times before. I belief he deserves credit for avoiding and his reaction afterwards regarding the move. The nonsense that occurred on Thursday, etc. I don't excuse. Common courtesy and a good relationship with the press is a given in F1. He's done nothing to improve that.
Rosberg is romping home to the Championship this year. To be honest, I haven't been his biggest fan these last couple of years but I was when he broke into F1, so very glad to see him perform so well this year. =D>
Diesel wrote:
Yes, and moving in braking zones is covered by that regulation. There's no gentlemen's agreement as such, it's more of a directive from the FIA which they can and do enforce under clause 27.8 of the sporting regulations.
We´re talking about two different things here.
Are we? You said moving in the braking zones was only prohibited by a gentlemen's agreement. That statement is incorrect, it's prohibited by the sporting regulations too, hence the (now withdrawn) Mercedes protest.
Yes we are.
I never said only, i said theres a gentlemans agreement among the drivers to never move in a braking zone. You fabricated the word "only".
The withdrawal of the protest was according to themselves because it would be dragged on to Austin amd had nothing to do with anything else.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"
iotar__ wrote:Safe to say Merc will keep some engine advantage in '17 and they have better drivers than RB/F. Interesting thing Perez said (Amus again) that since downforce/grip levels will be bigger engine will be more important = more time on max throttle. Still whoever gets on throttle earlier (better aero corners) should get an advantage
Roughly speaking, the engine advantage that Merc is having, is probably around 3 to 4 tenths (around 30-40 BHP to Renault) and their downforce is coming at relatively lesser drag expense, compared to RB. That totals the current advantage to around 5 to 6 tenths over a lap.
With the regulation changes offering up to 3 to 4 seconds of gain per lap, the current PU advantage would be far less significant IF let's say RB nails down the regulations better than MB. This is highly likely due to RB primarily being the chassis team, than a PU team. Though MB has made performance progress on PU, but their reliability issues are telling us that, they are now taking risks to get performance.
Both Renault and Honda are placing all the focus on 2017, as appeared in media and Merc would be doing the same without making noise in the media, it is possible that the hungriest of these PU manufacturers would get ahead next year, just like MB did in 2014. Since the start of 2016 with Hasegawa taking over, Honda has a separate team working on 2017. Similarly, the first year of Renault's association with Mario Illien has paid off handsomely. So they can expect progress for 2017. It is safe to assume that, in such a tight competition, it's hard to imagine that Mercedes can inch ahead their advantage, any further than what they have currently.
That leaves with the bigger competition happening at the Chassis level and based on past record, RB and MB are going head to head, with RB having bigger advantage based on how they have come through this year and Newey leading the design for 2017 since the start of this year. If RB can manufacturer another gimmick (like they did from 2009-2013), they can easily negate the MB's PU advantage.
Vasconia wrote:
Ferrari's car is certainly not fantastic but at this race - plus a couple of others like Hungary - they showed a slight pace advantage on Red Bull but couldn't make it count. That's because RB's strategy is consistently better
Thats the problem, the team´s bad strategy has ruined most of the races where they should have been in front of RB.
Vettel was not far from Max , so being faster he could have attacked Max. But they changed the tyres too late, when Max had pulled away and at the same time Lewis was just 4-5 seconds behind. The strategy could have not worked worse.
Ferrari screw up the strategy yet again. I have got tired of saying this. Must be so frustrating for Vettel. He was within 2 seconds of Verstappen and Max was losing his tyres. Ferrari should have called him in 1-2 laps before Max, fitted the hard tyre and let him complete the race with track position ahead of Max. That way, he would have got a buffer between himself & Lewis too. So poor on Ferrari's part
Wonder if Vettel will continue with this trainwreck beyond 2017/18. Imagine this, Honda becomes very competitive by 2017 and Alonso retires in 2018. Vettel may probably jump to Honda then again replacing Alonso.
All this is conjecture at this point but it is possible.
Using the race chart on f1fanatic, look how much the Ferrari pace drops off in the last 15 laps. Either the drivers are giving up or the car just doesn't have pace for 100% of the race (or good low fuel/used tyres pace). If the car can't perform for the whole race then the strategy is a secondary issue. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/10/09/2 ... ap-charts/
zac510 wrote:Using the race chart on f1fanatic, look how much the Ferrari pace drops off in the last 15 laps. Either the drivers are giving up or the car just doesn't have pace for 100% of the race (or good low fuel/used tyres pace). If the car can't perform for the whole race then the strategy is a secondary issue. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/10/09/2 ... ap-charts/
I dont know which tyres were used by Kimi, but Sebastian was fast with the soft ones until the performance went down, something which was expected. I guess he could have kept the pace if he would have used hard tyres.
