2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Pierce89
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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CjC wrote:I think you've took that last paragraph out of context?
Doesn't he mean 'high speed corners, we still don't really know' (how competitive we are relative to the competition)

Just my thought.
Its all out of context. I specifically made it clear that Mclaren have stated in 2015 and 2016 they had good aero correlation. NONE of his quotes contradict that. He spent a lot of time digging out quotes that don't even contradict what I said at all.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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ME4ME wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
It's only Mark Hughes...

Take his technical insights with a grain of salt.
Well, to be honest, this piece seems to be thought through better than most from Hughes.
Must have missed something, why the negative opinion about Hughes? In my opinion he is one of the best technically oriented journalists out there.
I have two minds about Mark Hughes. His articles are a pleasure to read and he is one of my favorite F1 writers actually. My only gripe is that when it comes to technical matters I think he needs to take it easy. He likes to jump ahead with speculation than wait on the facts and quotes from team personnel. Mark has made too many misses for me to fully trust him when it comes to things technical. For driver insights and the way he writes, I still look forward to and enjoy his articles! There are quite few journalists like him out there (I won't call any names!) and what i notice, is that when the technical facts come out differently from their punts, they never own up to it!
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techman
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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I specifically made it clear that Mclaren have stated in 2015 and 2016 they had good aero correlation. NONE of his quotes contradict that.
how many times mclaren have stated this that they have good aero correlation but when the car is on track it performs badly, when they were running a mercedes engine it was the same case but lucky for mercedes they had a benchmark chassis and no its not the mclaren chassis. so mclaren could not hide behind a manufacture like what they are doing with honda. next year they will be expose, its time honda find a team who can produce a decent chassis.

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Alonso Fan
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
I specifically made it clear that Mclaren have stated in 2015 and 2016 they had good aero correlation. NONE of his quotes contradict that.
how many times mclaren have stated this that they have good aero correlation but when the car is on track it performs badly, when they were running a mercedes engine it was the same case but lucky for mercedes they had a benchmark chassis and no its not the mclaren chassis. so mclaren could not hide behind a manufacture like what they are doing with honda. next year they will be expose, its time honda find a team who can produce a decent chassis.

They had a Mercedes engine in 2014. He was on about 2015 and 2016. A year makes a huge difference
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techman
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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They had a Mercedes engine in 2014. He was on about 2015 and 2016. A year makes a huge difference
we heard the same story in 2013 and 2014 from ron when they had the merc engine. but the car peformance wasnt the best on track..

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Thunder
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Good Aero Correlation doesn't mean the Car has to be quick. It just means the Data from the Wind Tunnel and CFD also shows on Track. Manor may have excellent Aero Correlation.

Also if you look at the Updates McLaren introduced over the Year, most of them stayed on the Car (except the RW Endplates of Justice). That speaks for some pretty good Aero Correlation. ;)
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Vasconia
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Thunders wrote:Good Aero Correlation doesn't mean the Car has to be quick. It just means the Data from the Wind Tunnel and CFD also shows on Track. Manor may have excellent Aero Correlation.

Also if you look at the Updates McLaren introduced over the Year, most of them stayed on the Car (except the RW Endplates of Justice). That speaks for some pretty good Aero Correlation. ;)
I think that we mostly agree that McLaren´s in-season develovment is very good. So the problem is the Winter development, I mean, the basic idea of the car doesnt work and then the only thing they can do is to improve something which is mediocre in its conception.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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mrluke wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
mrluke wrote:Since at least 2011 Mclaren have had problems with correlation and aero philosophy, the article provided further evidence that it hasn't been resolved yet.
Please! Mclaren has bragged about good correlation the past 2 seasons.
May 2012
http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsport/story/107262.html#rurTOptrm2mdUdi6.99 wrote:McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale says his team's main focus is getting to the bottom of the discrepancies it is seeing between the data from its in-factory simulations and what is actually happening with its car on track.
May 2013
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107261/mclaren-fixing-correlation-top-priority wrote:McLaren says its priority is to identify and resolve the correlation issues that led to its poor start to the 2013 Formula 1 season, as it fears the problem could also impact on its preparations for the '14 rules.
August 2015
http://www.pitpass.com/54441/How-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-McLaren wrote:Despite employing some of the brightest minds in motorsport, McLaren's engineers are still scratching their heads as to why the Woking team is struggling so badly this year.
July 2016
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/16862194/jenson-button-reliability-issues-show-mclaren-pushing-limit wrote:Our car is very good in slow-speed corners. High-speed corners, we still don't really know. We do have some upgrades aero-wise.
Did you realize none of the quotes you linked of past two seasons say a word about bad correlation?

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Thunders wrote:Good Aero Correlation doesn't mean the Car has to be quick. It just means the Data from the Wind Tunnel and CFD also shows on Track. Manor may have excellent Aero Correlation.
This

Also, the optimistic in me enjoy thinking 2016 McLaren development is focused on 2017 rules, so they´re not developing the car to perform this season, but they´re testing and developing concepts wich will work next season too. At least that´s what I´d do in their position as they didn´t have any chance to perform at normal McLaren level this season, so it would be absurd to develop the car for 2016.

Also, they´ve stated from day 1 McHonda project was a long term project, so with a huge rule change in third season of the project common sense states they should have focused on 2017 rules from day 1

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godlameroso
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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We shall see in 4 months what happens. There's still another month of season after Oct, then late February early March we go testing and end of March the new season starts.
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Sasha
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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At tracks like Suzuka and Silverstone with mid-high speed corners, their car isn't working and they are not 100% sure why.

Lets put it into Oval Racing terms.

Out of the box the chassis has understeer.(slow)
Add any front wing and they get snap oversteer.(driver killer)
And there is zero play at the moment!(with any front wing angle change it goes from understeer to snap oversteer....no in between!)

It looks like the front wing with high DF causes too much air-flow turbulence.(loses all rear DF)
They tried to fix this all year but still do not have a handle on it.(that is why they was so surprise at Suzuka)
Fixed on Computer didn't equal fixed or close to fixed in the Real World.

One way they could solve this was by lowering the rear ride height but this chassis isn't design to do so.(hopefully next year)

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godlameroso
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Hah, maybe they should play around with some plasma actuators to keep rear airflow from detaching.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/space ... r-control/

“But these are not thrusters,” says Thomas Corke, a leading plasma aerodynamicist at the University of Notre Dame. “They blow like weak table fans, only enough to move notebook pages around.” But, paradoxically, if aimed and timed correctly, the breezes blown by these plasma actuator devices can be strong enough to significantly alter how wind flows over wings in beneficial ways, he adds.

“With growing computer power and practice, we can now model the detailed behavior of the airflows over the wings, the fluid dynamics, as well as behavior of the plasmas themselves with increasing precision,” Corke says. “This lets us identify natural instabilities in air flows that we can exploit with great effect because just a tiny push at the right place and time can excite a much larger, and often positive, result.”

The power of such a fundamental approach was highlighted by a recent NASA-funded demonstration project in which Corke’s team at Notre Dame succeeded in deploying plasma actuators to suppress what he describes as “an important near-surface flow instability” that aerodynamicists know presages the onset of deleterious turbulence and drag.

Corke and his team reported that the wind tunnel test item, which used “new actuators that developed 20 times more thrust while consuming 100 times less power, produced a 65% drag reduction.” The Notre Dame researchers have found that introducing a small oscillation whose waves move perpendicular to the air flow path can halt the onset of the so-called near-surface flow instabilities that lead to turbulence."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HAa-bI6170
Look at the end of this video, Sauber F1 car?

Ok I'm convinced.
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diffuser
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:Hah, maybe they should play around with some plasma actuators to keep rear airflow from detaching.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/space ... r-control/

“But these are not thrusters,” says Thomas Corke, a leading plasma aerodynamicist at the University of Notre Dame. “They blow like weak table fans, only enough to move notebook pages around.” But, paradoxically, if aimed and timed correctly, the breezes blown by these plasma actuator devices can be strong enough to significantly alter how wind flows over wings in beneficial ways, he adds.

“With growing computer power and practice, we can now model the detailed behavior of the airflows over the wings, the fluid dynamics, as well as behavior of the plasmas themselves with increasing precision,” Corke says. “This lets us identify natural instabilities in air flows that we can exploit with great effect because just a tiny push at the right place and time can excite a much larger, and often positive, result.”

The power of such a fundamental approach was highlighted by a recent NASA-funded demonstration project in which Corke’s team at Notre Dame succeeded in deploying plasma actuators to suppress what he describes as “an important near-surface flow instability” that aerodynamicists know presages the onset of deleterious turbulence and drag.

Corke and his team reported that the wind tunnel test item, which used “new actuators that developed 20 times more thrust while consuming 100 times less power, produced a 65% drag reduction.” The Notre Dame researchers have found that introducing a small oscillation whose waves move perpendicular to the air flow path can halt the onset of the so-called near-surface flow instabilities that lead to turbulence."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HAa-bI6170
Look at the end of this video, Sauber F1 car?

Ok I'm convinced.

They could probably do the same thing with vortex generators

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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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Sasha wrote: Out of the box the chassis has understeer.(slow)
Add any front wing and they get snap oversteer.(driver killer)
And there is zero play at the moment!(with any front wing angle change it goes from understeer to snap oversteer....no in between!)
I agree with this, this is also my observation from free practice sessions over the year. Especially in FP1 you hear the drivers complaining all the time about too much understeer. Then, playing with the FW, you hear especially BUT moaning about an unpredictable rear end and he is nowhere compared to ALO.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote: They could probably do the same thing with vortex generators
You mean similar to how Mercedes has them all over their front wing, along with Ferrari's serrated edges?

But I wanna see cars with a purple glow in the night races...
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