This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
iotar__ wrote:
1 year contract for Bottas is a bit surprising, maybe less so considering that:
- they like to make a circus out of extending, good occasions to mention potential candidates like Wehrlein and Alonso
- short contract leash can be useful
- perhaps Williams buy out money was the issue.
In my opion, Bottas did not outright earn his place in Mercedes. He was just the best option available ! If Mercedes do not compete in 2018 as manufacturer, it would mean tough times for everybody working in connection with them. If they do, Bottas have to impress this year to have a valid change for contract expansion.
PlatinumZealot wrote:Bottas may have commited career suicide implied Hamilton senior.
Agreed. If he loses to Hamilton its a done deal and if he beats Hamilton it will be because the team sabotaged Hamilton.
He cannot win either way...
Meanwhile if that Stroll money (+ newly funded technical leadership) turns Williams around and Merc backs out in 2018 then Bottas has lost his position as team leader at a top team.
PlatinumZealot wrote:Bottas may have commited career suicide implied Hamilton senior.
Agreed. If he loses to Hamilton its a done deal and if he beats Hamilton it will be because the team sabotaged Hamilton.
He cannot win either way...
Meanwhile if that Stroll money (+ newly funded technical leadership) turns Williams around and Merc backs out in 2018 then Bottas has lost his position as team leader at a top team.
Poor guy.
With Stroll backing, Lance is going to be the lead driver!
turbof1 wrote:
Of course, a little bit more sinister, something that has passed the revenue a lot, is that Mercedes is planning on quiting F1 altogether in 2018.
??? How did you get this info?
To me this sounds like the most stupid thing they can do. They spend a vast amount of money to get their championships.
But in fact the fat years are coming: The base is there, the F1 money is flowing. They are in a situation like RedBull after their second or third CC, when Mateschiz suddenly did not have to spend money on the team anymore.
So just like the RedBull team became a big free marketing for RedBull, Mercedes can put their F1 team to a free marketing tool.
It has been mentioned a few times before, like a rumour that doesn't go away.
I think it's mainly bollocks though, and it originates more from Mercedes taking a bargaining position instead of being really serious about it.
If Ecclestone or the FIA would make it too hard or too uncomfortable to their wishes and desires, it serves well for the team to then threaten with leaving the sport -ala Ferrari- with
the hopes that it would drive Bernie or the FIA to re-concider the intentions they have/had. It's politics above all else.
With the new owners, we have no idea right now where the sport will go, but i feel Mercedes will stick around for a serious amount of time. Especially whilst on top, where they are
surely going to stay for a while. Atleast untill 2020 they will surely be batteling for the top 3 without a single doubt. I think they'd make sure they have some weight to put into the
direction F1 will take as of 2020 too.
With Ferrari still 'nowhere' they have one potential danger for their position less to worry about. At this moment, it's really between Mercedes and RedBull, Ferrari behind that and the rest a big question mark, perhaps Mclaren can rejoin the fun. perhaps. But for their brand, they are in a perfect position for quite a while still. Even if RedBull would beat them, RedBull is an energy drinks supplier with a TAG-Heuer (WATCH!) branded engine. It wouldn't harm them that much. I dare say they can sugarcoat getting beat by Ferrari aswell, and Mclaren more or less too though the issue with Mclaren would be that it would be a Honda-powered team, so that would leave Mercedes beat by Honda, less desireable.
I don't see that happening so fast so they're relatively safe.
They have gotten 3 titles in a row now, so they're on fire and another one in 2017 would do them good. They surely would like to 'beat' RedBull's stint with Vettel i think, so there is without a doubt enough motivation for 2017, so i wouldn't see how 2018 would then result in a total 'exit' and return to engine provider.
As for some figures leaving Mercedes right now, this is nothing but normal process from people trying to advance their careers and also choosing possibly the best location to be at for the good of their career.
Paddy Lowe leaving Mercedes before they go down the order, and being at Williams potentially going 'up the order' looks very good on your resumé.
Staying with Mercedes whilst going down the order, and then heading out to another team hoping to fare better looks a good lot less on your resumé.
Nah, Merc will not be leaving anytime soon.
2022+ at best, if the changed F1 format doesnt suit them, they are not getting the results they're after, and their f1 sporting ambitions no longer fits the company brand image they are looking for anymore, then they might ditch F1 and switch it for LM, WEC, perhaps Formula E, and sell the team to another interested party.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
turbof1 wrote:
Of course, a little bit more sinister, something that has passed the revenue a lot, is that Mercedes is planning on quiting F1 altogether in 2018.
??? How did you get this info?
To me this sounds like the most stupid thing they can do. They spend a vast amount of money to get their championships.
But in fact the fat years are coming: The base is there, the F1 money is flowing. They are in a situation like RedBull after their second or third CC, when Mateschiz suddenly did not have to spend money on the team anymore.
So just like the RedBull team became a big free marketing for RedBull, Mercedes can put their F1 team to a free marketing tool.
My previous message was a bit misleading: it is certainly not a fact, but a rumour. Mind that F1 is nothing more than a development and marketing platform for Mercedes. Once they feel those benefits are not outweighting the costs anymore, they will quit as many manufacturers have done before them. Also let's not forget they can milk their championships for years to come, even after they are out of F1. Past costs and past revenue do not count; these are sunken costs and sunken revenues. The only concern for Mercedes what it will benefit them tomorrow.
But again, this is a rumour. I neither believe it, but I do put in consideration.
turbof1 wrote:
Of course, a little bit more sinister, something that has passed the revenue a lot, is that Mercedes is planning on quiting F1 altogether in 2018.
??? How did you get this info?
To me this sounds like the most stupid thing they can do. They spend a vast amount of money to get their championships.
But in fact the fat years are coming: The base is there, the F1 money is flowing. They are in a situation like RedBull after their second or third CC, when Mateschiz suddenly did not have to spend money on the team anymore.
So just like the RedBull team became a big free marketing for RedBull, Mercedes can put their F1 team to a free marketing tool.
My previous message was a bit misleading: it is certainly not a fact, but a rumour. Mind that F1 is nothing more than a development and marketing platform for Mercedes. Once they feel those benefits are not outweighting the costs anymore, they will quit as many manufacturers have done before them. Also let's not forget they can milk their championships for years to come, even after they are out of F1. Past costs and past revenue do not count; these are sunken costs and sunken revenues. The only concern for Mercedes what it will benefit them tomorrow.
But again, this is a rumour. I neither believe it, but I do put in consideration.
Why would Mercedes decide to leave at this point where they are almost spending nothing and gaining enormous publicity?
[color=#0000FF]Autosport, By Lawrence Barretto (Published on Thursday October 13th 2016)[/color] wrote:Mercedes believes it is on track to break even after reporting significantly improved financial results for the 2015 Formula 1 season, Autosport understands.
GPR-A wrote:Why would Mercedes decide to leave at this point where they are almost spending nothing and gaining enormous publicity?
If it was that easy, then why did BMW and Toyota leave? They certainly have the cash to put themselves over the hump and get on the path to "almost spending nothing and gaining enormous publicity". Does Mercedes have a systematically better ability to create and maintain technical management programs than BMW, Toyota, etc., or did they get lucky with Ross Brawn and have a willingness to commit large capital spends building up to 2014?
Once you figure in the large up-front capital spend that was necessary to get here, they are properly seen as having spent lots of money for the current publicity. May or may not be worth it, but definitely a large spend. It just happened to be in advance rather than concurrent.
Does Merc have all the capital assets needed to maintain this level of publicity? There has never been a time in modern F1 when it wasn't necessary to continually pour money into ever-larger capital investments in order to remain a front-running team. So Merc must spend now to pay for tomorrow's publicity or hope the current era is a first in modern F1 history. Red Bull is currently willing, as a function of Mr. Mateschitz's ego/enthusiasm, to spend whatever it takes.
bill shoe wrote:Question: If it was that easy, then why did BMW and Toyota leave? They certainly have the cash to put themselves over the hump and get on the path to "almost spending nothing and gaining enormous publicity". Answer: Does Mercedes have a systematically better ability to create and maintain technical management programs than BMW, Toyota, etc., Reason 1: they get lucky with Ross Brawn and Reason 2: have a willingness to commit large capital spends building up to 2014?
[color=#0000FF]Toto Wolff[/color] wrote:“Success is never down to one individual – it’s the product of an incredible collective effort,” says Mr Wolff. “Our results today on the track have their roots in the good decisions made by my predecessor, Ross Brawn, in terms of putting the technologies in place and recruiting the right people. We have built on those foundations and aligned our key stakeholders behind a clear strategy. Now we can see that the company is reaping the rewards on the business side, as we have done on the track.” It really is the winning formula.
[color=#0000FF]Christian Sylt , CONTRIBUTOR[/color] wrote:Toto Says, “We are in a very fortunate position because our key stakeholders understand our business. They know that if you try and run an F1 team like a corporate multinational, it doesn’t go. You need to be independent, agile and capable of taking quick decisions,” says Mr Wolff.
In contrast, the teams owned by rival manufacturers like BMW, Toyota and Honda were structured more like committees and it didn’t pay off. Toyota invested an estimated $2.1 billion in its F1 team but never won a single race over its eight-year time in the series which came to an abrupt end with the economic downturn in 2009.
Similarly, Honda only won one race as a team owner but had burned up around $1.4 billion by the time it bowed out in 2008. It has since returned to F1 but only as an engine supplier to the McLaren team which is currently languishing in sixth place. It couldn’t be much more of a different story for Mercedes.
...............
It seems to challenge the common perception that winning in F1 requires an ever-increasing budget, especially since $7.4 million of the rise in Mercedes’ costs last year was down to inflationary increases in the salary of its 807 staff members. The team added 42 staff in 2015, mainly in design, manufacturing and engineering, and they were paid a total of $116.2 million.
Further challenging typical F1 conventions, the team is close to being financially self-sustainable with Mercedes’ owner Daimler only needing to cover the $33 million net loss. In F1 terms this is tiny and more than pays for itself.
bill shoe wrote:Does Merc have all the capital assets needed to maintain this level of publicity? There has never been a time in modern F1 when it wasn't necessary to continually pour money into ever-larger capital investments in order to remain a front-running team. So Merc must spend now to pay for tomorrow's publicity or hope the current era is a first in modern F1 history. Red Bull is currently willing, as a function of Mr. Mateschitz's ego/enthusiasm, to spend whatever it takes.
For as long as the current investment is helping them remain ahead, the question of enhancing the budgets doesn't arise. Most importantly, it's not the money that brings competitive edge, it's the people. At the moment, Mercedes seems to have everything in place and for as long as they ensure the flow continues with people, they can continue enjoying success.
bill shoe wrote:Question: If it was that easy, then why did BMW and Toyota leave? They certainly have the cash to put themselves over the hump and get on the path to "almost spending nothing and gaining enormous publicity". Answer: Does Mercedes have a systematically better ability to create and maintain technical management programs than BMW, Toyota, etc., Reason 1: they get lucky with Ross Brawn and Reason 2: have a willingness to commit large capital spends building up to 2014?
[color=#0000FF]Toto Wolff[/color] wrote:“Success is never down to one individual – it’s the product of an incredible collective effort,” says Mr Wolff. “Our results today on the track have their roots in the good decisions made by my predecessor, Ross Brawn, in terms of putting the technologies in place and recruiting the right people. We have built on those foundations and aligned our key stakeholders behind a clear strategy. Now we can see that the company is reaping the rewards on the business side, as we have done on the track.” It really is the winning formula.
[color=#0000FF]Christian Sylt , CONTRIBUTOR[/color] wrote:Toto Says, “We are in a very fortunate position because our key stakeholders understand our business. They know that if you try and run an F1 team like a corporate multinational, it doesn’t go. You need to be independent, agile and capable of taking quick decisions,” says Mr Wolff.
In contrast, the teams owned by rival manufacturers like BMW, Toyota and Honda were structured more like committees and it didn’t pay off. Toyota invested an estimated $2.1 billion in its F1 team but never won a single race over its eight-year time in the series which came to an abrupt end with the economic downturn in 2009.
Similarly, Honda only won one race as a team owner but had burned up around $1.4 billion by the time it bowed out in 2008. It has since returned to F1 but only as an engine supplier to the McLaren team which is currently languishing in sixth place. It couldn’t be much more of a different story for Mercedes.
...............
It seems to challenge the common perception that winning in F1 requires an ever-increasing budget, especially since $7.4 million of the rise in Mercedes’ costs last year was down to inflationary increases in the salary of its 807 staff members. The team added 42 staff in 2015, mainly in design, manufacturing and engineering, and they were paid a total of $116.2 million.
Further challenging typical F1 conventions, the team is close to being financially self-sustainable with Mercedes’ owner Daimler only needing to cover the $33 million net loss. In F1 terms this is tiny and more than pays for itself.
bill shoe wrote:Does Merc have all the capital assets needed to maintain this level of publicity? There has never been a time in modern F1 when it wasn't necessary to continually pour money into ever-larger capital investments in order to remain a front-running team. So Merc must spend now to pay for tomorrow's publicity or hope the current era is a first in modern F1 history. Red Bull is currently willing, as a function of Mr. Mateschitz's ego/enthusiasm, to spend whatever it takes.
For as long as the current investment is helping them remain ahead, the question of enhancing the budgets doesn't arise. Most importantly, it's not the money that brings competitive edge, it's the people. At the moment, Mercedes seems to have everything in place and for as long as they ensure the flow continues with people, they can continue enjoying success.
The quotes from Toto Wolff are nothing more than PR/Marketing statements. This is because the moment any company talks about its stakeholders, it's doing an effort to influence how the world perceives the company. This has nothing to do with the interests of Mercedes in F1.
I'm not saying they are going to back off in 2018, but once F1 is no longer interesting enough for Mercedes, they will be gone. Even if the whole deal is financially break even (it's not. Anybody with a bit of accountancy background can do some magic in a consolidated company like Mercedes and transfer costs outside the balance of the F1 team), it does not necessarily mean F1 is the best option for Mercedes. If the human and capital resources have a higher return in a different context (Formula E, other racing series,...) than that's an incentive for Mercedes to move out of F1. To put a simple analogy: if you have shares and these have an annual growth of 4%, and you notice a different wallet of shares which offer 6% annual growth with lower projected risk, what would you do? I personally would inmediately sell my current package of shares and buy into that other package.
That's corporate reality unfortunaly. The fact that Mercedes is still in F1 definitely is positive and there are no real indicators they are leaving soon. But
By the way guys maybe I'm reading too much into it (blame it on the winter break ), but the rims look different and are of OZ brand instead of Advanti (been using them since 2013).
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare
Advanti´s F1 wheels are designed and produced by OZ in Italy according to Mercedes homepage so it might just be a sticker on what will be the next set of Advanti wheels for the W08.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"
), but the rims look different and are of OZ brand instead of Advanti (been using them since 2013).
