Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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rgmerkel
rgmerkel
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004, 04:06

Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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Hello, Today’s F1 cars can corner at about 3.5 G's. I think I remember that they could do about 1 G in the 1960's. What could the front-engined F1 cars of the 1950's do? How about the GP cars of the 1930's. Where could such info be found?
Ron Merkel

Monstrobolaxa
Monstrobolaxa
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Well according to the book "Formula 1 Technology" in the 50's they reached around 0,95g's in corners. It the mid 60's the figure doubled (1,9 - 2g's).

About the 30's a personal guess would be around 0,85.....in theory and practically there is a lower limit diferente from 0m does anyone know what the limit is? I suspect it would be aroud 0,1 ou 0,2 in the following hipotheticall situation: tires made from ice and driving on ice. but does anyone know the minimum limit for rubber?Another thing to think of it the maximum, in theory there wouldn't existe a limit, cause with the evolution of aerodynamics and rubber construction the g's value could rise...but due to the human physical limitations it wouldn't go over the 8g mark and even this mark is very very high.

pyry
pyry
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actually at spa forinstance and suzuka, both being low downforce tracks but with fast corners last year a figure ~4.2g could be reached.

rgmerkel
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Thanks for the info. The book "Formula 1 Technology" looks good; I'll have to get me a copy. Two G's seem vary fast for a car with no wings. Tires (USA spelling) were getting wider then.

You are right about 8 G's being an upper limit, but not vary often or vary long! My guess is the 4.2 G's "pyry" noted would be as high as the FIA would allow. We don’t want the drivers blacking out at speed!
Ron Merkel

mx_tifoso
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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Seeing how Pre-War GP cars had a front-engine layout, basic or no aerodynamic designs, and thin low-grip tires, could they theoretically have increased cornering G's (20-50%?) just by simply increasing the tire's contact patch :?:

Or were those cars designed specifically with thin tires in mind :?: What I'm saying is that there would have been a drawback in having wider tires, possibly (suspension wise, etc).

Any response would be great, as I'm pretty much thinking out loud and would like to have some sort of "professional" input .

Thanks in advance.
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ginsu
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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I know back then, their knowledge of tires is what was holding them back the most. They simply didn't believe that a tire could grip above 1g. So I'm certain the cars were never setup to do more than that.
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Ogami musashi
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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This year turn 8 was taken average at 4,5G but 5g and above for the top teams.
In 2006 the same turn was taken by renault and ferrari at 5,5g.

There're some other corner that used to go up to 5g's and more like magny cours and silverstone.

This year the tyres have less grip so until the downforce grow the high speed section were a bit slower.

On a simple basis, the grip aviable without downforce is the tire coeficient times the weight of the car.

Because the tire coeficient used to vary a lot with speed and loading in fact the best cornering possibility was 1G.

Then downforce came and...

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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I'd say it's not what you believe, but what you measure, as Ogami Mushashi points out. :)

I have in front of my eyes the figures from a 1948 study by Shelburne for locked brakes (forward skidding, so to speak), which represents a minimum for friction coefficient, but a realistic proposition for someone who slams on the brakes before ABS. Data was collected in 1947, so it's not pre-war, unless you count Korea.

It has 11 curves or so (the graph is a mess, I swear, made long before Excel graphs), for combinations of worn-good tread, wet-dry surface, asphalt-concrete and three kinds of "regular" tires.

The curves are parabolic against speed, following the empirical relationship (more or less) of:

Stopping distance = Speed squared/K*Friction Coefficient,

where, roughly speaking, K = 30 for distances in feet and speed in mph.

First curious thing (for some, I imagine): the skidding coefficient varies inversely with the square of the speed! It's not constant, as you learn in Road Design 101. I won't delve into it, or this post will become unreadable even for myself... :)

Second, to answer the question (in two answers, I confess):

a. The maximum measured value, at 20 mph, good tread, dry surface, asphalt is 0.8. Conversely, the minimum measured value, at 50 mph, asphalt, worn tread, wet is 0.3

b. The "legal" maximum values you can reasonably use in design are 0.4 at 20 mph and 0.28 at 70 mph.

Schulze and Beckman arrived basically to the same conclusions in 1962 ("Friction Properties of Pavements at Different Speeds"), but on German pavements. Their maximum-minimum values, measured with a locked wheel trailer, go between 0.9 at 20 mph, dry pavement and 0.17 (or so, it's a graph) for 50 mph, wet.

I emphasize again that this are skidding figures, but it's a start... :)

Finally, (really! :D) for modern cars the figures vary a lot, when you measure them.

Here you have an Excel file I already posted three or four times:

http://ciropabon.googlepages.com/Catalu ... tution.zip

I made it very quickly, using simple equations. The data is for Catalunya, back in 2005, before the last modifications to the track. Reca provided me with the link to a Brembo page for the stopping distances and I calculated the friction coefficients.

I deduced the lateral coefficients from the speeds posted by FIA at their map of the track, using the average geometrical radius, instead of the true car trajectory radius. I measured it in AutoCad and Eagle Point :oops: (sorry, no Catia!). A lot of assumptions, but hey, it's engineering (or something similar).

To sum up, you get a friction coefficient from 4 at the entrances to (old) Elf, Repsol, Seat and La Caixa to 2.5 at Banc Sabadell, with 3.5 at Wurth curve.

For lateral friction coefficients the variation I find is larger: it goes from 1.6 at La Caixa to 3.5 maximum at Wurth. This are maximum values, as the cars use a larger radius trajectory than the actual radius of the curve, and this difference between real and measured radius is larger for tighter curves.

As this year have appeared the trajectories at FIA site, then you could try to do the same exercise measuring the true trajectory radius, which means you'll get lower figures.

Anyway, I don't get anything close to 5 Gs. On the other hand, I'm sure that this number is a peak value, not the effective friction coefficient for the whole curve: I guess this is what the pilot feels, not the effective lateral force that the wheels are able to develop through the curve.

Just in case, here you have the reported entrance speed in Km/h vs radius in m, as I calculated:

Image
Ciro

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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I would like to thank all three of you for giving me some feedback.

Each response was different and pretty much covered a specific area that I was hoping to know. Even though its a lot for this business student to take in :oops: , I'll still try to absorb as much info as possible though.

Another request if possible, do you guys have any links to sites that may have information regarding specs and details about Pre-WWII GP cars :?: Or even ones from right after the war would be great.

Thanks in advance once again.
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Carlos
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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A few pages on the early years of GP starting in 1906:
http://www.speedace.info/grand_prix_history.htm

One of my favourite cars; the 1926 GP Delage Straight Eight
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2940 ... 15-S8.html

ultimatecarpage is a good place to look for machinery.I also like the 1932 Alfa Romeo Tipo B P3, 1934 Auto Union Type A and 1939 Type D , 1934 Mercedes Benz W25 and the 1937 W125, 1938 Maserati 8C and 1938 Alfa Romeo 158/159 Alfetta. I think most of them are on this site.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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I forgot to repost (sorry!) that, following Beckman, it is very easy to find for yourself the static friction factor for your tires.

Next time you rotate them, get a common weighing scale. Use it to weigh your tire. Now, allow the tire to stand "upright" by itself. Use the scale to push the tire laterally until it slides. Divide.

I get 1.1-1.2, which shows...

Well, I don't know what it shows, except that the idea of "oldies" thinking that rubber on asphalt cannot go beyond a friction factor of 1 must be an urban legend. There are plenty of materials that go beyond 1, after all it simply means that the angle for sliding is 45 degrees (tangent of 45 = 1).

Push your tire even more until it slides, keep pushing (and read at the same time the force, if you can). I get the skidding friction factor of a humble 185R13 around 0.8-0.9

Let's take a dragster, 0 to 300 mph, that is 480 km/h or 133 m/s, in a quarter of a mile, which is 410 meters. As

a = V^2/2D

you get

a = (133^2)/(2*410) = 21 m/s2

That's around 2.1 Gs or a friction factor of 2.1, average over the whole run. If you try the figures for shorter "sub-stints" you find 4.0 Gs maximum for a dragster.

Now, for F1 tyres, heated, from my exercise at Catalunya, I get 4.0 Gs. On the other hand, I've heard many times an F1 car gets 0-100 km/h (or 28 m/s) in 2 seconds or so. This means the acceleration is around 14 m/s2 or roughly 1.5 Gs, so with TC, on a start with cool tires, you get 1.5 as friction factor.

A question arises (well, at least for me! :D): how in heaven can you get 4.0 Gs out of a tire?

Let's think for a moment about that absurd number.

Arctan of 4 is 76 degrees. That's a lot. There is NOTHING in my house, except for glue or velcro, that can hold to a surface by itself at that angle.

There are a couple of theories: Tread Momentum principle and Critical Speed Model. http://www.caselab.okstate.edu/pubs/tmb_thesis.pdf The Tread Momentum states that the downforce on the asphalt must be equal to the change in momentum of the tread of the tire. It works, but is hard to calculate.
Ciro

Belatti
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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I have read that Beckman chapter (thanks to you Ciro!)
If you try to do that measure, just have in mind that the material of the scale is different from that of asphalt. You can try to stick some kind of sand paper to better represent asphalt surface properties. Also you can experiment with different air pressures. Good luck!
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Metar
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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But I thought that, assuming no downforce, cornering-forces are unrelated to the weight of the car? The equation for radial motion and grip available cancels itself out, giving an equal (theoretical) maximum cornering-speed for heavy cars compared to lightweight cars - assuming no downforce or lift, and a perfect contact-patch.

So did the increase in grip really come from tyre-improvements? Or did improvements in suspension-geometry improve grip?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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No, Belatti, the idea is to put the tire on top of the asphalt and push it WITH the scale. The tire rests on asphalt, the scale is used only to measure the forces.

No, Metar, the cornerign FORCES are proportional to the weight. The force you need to move laterally a truck is larger than the force you need to move laterally a car. The truck weighs more. What is equal (more or less!) is the relationship between weight and lateral force, the so called friction factor.

I don't want to confuse anybody here, but even that (friction factor constant) is not true: the larger the power delivered to the asphalt and the larger the speed, the larger the friction factor, everything else being equal. That's what the Tread Momentum theory is about; if it weren't for that (so it is said), there would be no chance to get 4.0 Gs.
Ciro

Vitesse
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Re: Mechanical grip in prewing F1 and prewar Grand Prix?

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mx_tifosi wrote:Seeing how Pre-War GP cars had a front-engine layout, basic or no aerodynamic designs, and thin low-grip tires, could they theoretically have increased cornering G's (20-50%?) just by simply increasing the tire's contact patch :?:
There were some experiments along these lines in Britain in the late 1930s - but obviously not with GP cars (we didn't have any!) - there are quite a few pictures of Shelsley Walsh hillclimbs featuring cars with double rear wheels for extra grip. The first person to try this may have been Raymond Mays, probably with his ERA R4D.

The idea spread to road racing and you can also find pictures from 1938-39 events at Crystal Palace showing cars with double rear wheels: George Abecassis' Alta particularly.

No doubt the European GP teams watched this with interest, but the very different nature of British and European hillclimbs (the Grossglockner was just a tad longer than Shelsley or Prescott!), meant that winning margins in Europe were in tens of seconds rather than tenths. The twisty pre-war Crystal Palace circuit could only be compared to one GP circuit of the time - Monaco, which wasn't used after 1937. Hmm .... twin rears on a Mercedes Benz W154 blasting past the harbour :shock:

The British didn't forget though and Reg Parnell used twin rears to win two ice races in an ERA in Sweden in early 1947.

Having said all that, cornering techniques were different then, with drivers using lots of opposite lock to cope with the enormous amounts of power being transmitted to the driving wheels. Examine particularly the styles of Nuvolari and Rosemeyer.
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