2017 F1 general testing thread

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Sevach
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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mika vs michael wrote:In the end James Allen could be right but still we don't know which teams will bring new updates in Australia and whose updates will work or not. so the pecking order may shuffle more. Actually Raikkonen missing more apexes than Bottas and understeering more than Bottas may be a sign having more fuel on board. We'll see...in 11 days time...Bring it on...
That is worst for Mercedes i think, they are the ones who introduced a fair number of updates already.
Whatever extra Ferrari and Red Bull have they saved for Melbourne.

Disagree on Bottas vs Kimi though, Kimi is understeering because he's braking considerably later and carrying a heaps more speed into the corners, the question is how much deeper could Bottas go before he starts to understeer too?

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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Mattchu wrote:Not sure why you think Red Bull will bring a new aero package to the first race! Maybe they will bring some updates or a few bits and pieces, they wouldn`t have gone to the trouble of testing all the parts they did with flow vis and pressure sensors if it was for nothing. Personally i don`t think much will change visually on the cars between the last day of testing and the first race....but we`ll see :) The engine needs more power, if that works stronger the whole package does...
Australia is a pretty unique track so perhaps changes wont´be that big but I am sure that RB is preparing a hole package as they have traditionally done. I would be surprised if it doesn´t happpen. The big problem from the right now is the PU which has more problems than perhaps they had expected.

PhillipM
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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I'm happy to bet a £10 donation to a charity of your choice Mattchu on that at least half the grid brings aero updates to Melbourne.

g70
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Traditionally Ferrari has never made big updates before the Spanish Grand Prix. I hope that this year is not so and continuously releases working updates

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Phil
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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I am amazed no one has realized that the long run simulation that James Allen is comparing is actually Mercedes (Hamilton) from the first test, whereas both Ferrari and RedBulls is from the 2nd week.

Not that i expect there to be a big difference because of it, but i wouldnt be surprised if at that point Mercedes might have been running their engine more conservately than during the 2nd week.

Then there is also the point about the different tyre strategy that makes it slightly more difficult to compare, even if fuel levels were similar.

I think it is going to be close. I think Mercedes will retain its position ahead to the point some will be dissapointed, especially in QF. I expect RedBull to be very strong, especially on tracks with lots of mechanical grip. I think the longer wheelbase if the Merc will prove very tricky on some tracks. I suspect Monaco might be Redbulls race, followed by Ferrari.

Australia cant come soon enough.
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Phil wrote:I am amazed no one has realized that the long run simulation that James Allen is comparing is actually Mercedes (Hamilton) from the first test, whereas both Ferrari and RedBulls is from the 2nd week.

Not that i expect there to be a big difference because of it, but i wouldnt be surprised if at that point Mercedes might have been running their engine more conservately than during the 2nd week.
I did read somewhere, they actually brought some engine upgrades for 2nd week, which then allowed to exercise the PU a lot more. It also reflects with the way the customers teams in second test went with pace, particularly Williams.

I did my best to search for the article, but could not find. If someone has more information on this, please post it.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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giantfan10 wrote:these few key sentences are what i took away from jamesallenonf1's analysis:
"it’s not the headline lap time of 1m 18.634secs, set by Kimi Raikkonen on the final day, which makes F1 insiders believe that Ferrari is able to challenge for wins from the first round."
"Single lap times in qualifying simulations during testing are smoke and mirrors"
"it is the study of the long run pace of the Ferrari that provides the real insight into how strong they truly are relative to their main rivals. And that also tells us the pecking order of the field as a whole after testing."
" Mercedes could be running with the engine slightly turned down, (as could Ferrari) but even so, the numbers here say that Ferrari is ahead by 3/10ths on long run pace after the second test. So in all likelihood they are very close on pace in reality."
"We can see that Hamilton is the faster Mercedes driver, Verstappen heads his team mate at Red Bull, while Vettel had a faster race run than Raikkonen at Ferrari"
"The equivalent plot to this 12 months ago showed Mercedes clearly ahead, despite the headline lap times showing Ferrari with the fastest single lap."

there it is all spelled out in simple language.
Does this mean ferrari will win melbourne? NO, what it means to me is that we will more than likely have a real competition this year based on testing.
The great man, James Allen on 2016 Winter Testing.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/03/ ... barcelona/
Conclusion
Winter testing is always hard to read, but hopefully this little snapshot of one day in Barcelona where two cars ran in similar configuration at a similar time, with a roughly similar fuel load, indicates that Ferrari is perhaps closer than people have been making out.
Of course, Mercedes could be masking performance in the fuel loads by a couple of tenths, but the conclusion from this comparison, is that when you take out the difference between the soft tyre Hamilton was using and the medium tyre that Vettel was using, the Ferrari was roughly 0.2s slower.
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/03/ ... 1-testing/
Overview – Mercedes vs Ferrari for wins and championship
The overview is that Mercedes continues to set the pace, but we think that the gap to Ferrari in underlying pace has roughly halved over the winter and that Mercedes is perhaps 0.2s-0.3s faster than the Maranello squad. But there are signs that the race pace is closer than that, with a couple of Kimi Raikkonen’s long runs in particular suggesting that Ferrari more or less matches Mercedes.
Result? Mercedes out qualified Ferrari by 8 tenths for the first qualifying of the season.
I am not predicting anything on my own and I am happy to wait for the Saturday of Melbourne.
Last edited by GPR-A duplicate2 on 13 Mar 2017, 19:00, edited 2 times in total.

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dans79
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Phil wrote:I am amazed no one has realized that the long run simulation that James Allen is comparing is actually Mercedes (Hamilton) from the first test, whereas both Ferrari and RedBulls is from the 2nd week.
Some here, are going to believe what they want to believe, no matter what. For example, how some get all bent out of shape when others mention that Merc usually runs heavy, and Ferrari runs light.
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dren
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Although, Ferrari should have won the first race last season. They were a lot closer in the first few races. Then they fell back.
Honda!

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dans79
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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dren wrote:Although, Ferrari should have won the first race last season. They were a lot closer in the first few races. Then they fell back.
ignoring 2014, Ferrari has been pretty good on race pace for a while, but it's been almost a decade (2008) since they had really good one lap pace.
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Mattchu
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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PhillipM wrote:I'm happy to bet a £10 donation to a charity of your choice Mattchu on that at least half the grid brings aero updates to Melbourne.
They will definitely bring "aero updates" but i doubt any will bring a new "aero package", at most i can imagine a wing here, modified bargeboards there.
I suppose the thing is what would/could be classed as a new aero package? Floor? diffusor? front and rear wing? or just an extra fin...
I`ll admit i was being a bit pedantic, hadn`t had a proper brew yet!

Depending on the update Renault bring we may even see Williams and Force India above Red Bull or even Haas (cat among the pigeons).
Then again if the Renault engine is a corker we might see Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Renault up front, its a conundrum alright...

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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AMUS still thinks RB has something big for aero as surprise in Melbourne.
Nevertheless, the competition is convinced that Red Bull has not shown anything and only reveals the cards at the GP Australia. We asked Christian Horner: Can we expect a surprise in Melbourne? Cryptic answer: "You can count on it, even if it may be different from what you imagine." We interpret the statement as follows: Red Bull will show a spectacular solution that does not look spectacular. That would be newey like.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url

I think the suprise will be that the car will look absolutely the same and win the race. From Clio mode to Espace F1 mode.

or pessimistic, will absolutely look the same and will be as slow as during their race sims. and even worse their suspension will be deemd illegal. Which will cost them another 0.5 sec.

I think the car's handling looked very smoothly and to me it was the most silent, PU wise and aero wake wise.
But it also looked a bit slow (visually). (on the race sims) (hopefully big sandbagging going on , otherwise :? )
Maybe it has a superior fuel efficiency due to the supreme aerodynamic efficiency. and as we just hurt that more races will be fuel limited, and maybe Newey was having that very much in mind when he created this RB13 stealth F1.
Last edited by FrukostScones on 14 Mar 2017, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

edu2703
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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What testing tells us about the season ahead

Over the past two weeks the 10 Formula One teams have had eight days of track time in which to get to know their 2017 cars. Those eight days have seen hundreds of laps and thousands of kilometres completed, but what have they taught us, and what can we expect when the drivers arrive in Melbourne for the 2017 Formula 1 Rolex Australian Grand Prix?


It will be tight at the top…

Everyone expected the Mercedes to be super fast and super reliable straight out of the box - it’s a pattern that has become familiar over recent seasons. What far fewer predicted was that Ferrari would appear to have the measure of the world champions - a feat many thought Red Bull more likely to achieve.

In fact, with their highly innovative SF70H machine the Scuderia ended up first and second on the overall timesheet - and with Kimi Raikkonen’s benchmark notably set on Pirelli’s supersoft tyre, rather than the sticker ultrasoft.

Of course, Ferrari were quick in testing last year and then failed to win a single race, but this year their form has been such that Lewis Hamilton went as far as to suggest they could well be favourites come Melbourne - especially as he believes they have pace in hand. It was a view countered by Sebastian Vettel, who insisted the Silver Arrows are still the team to beat.

And what of Red Bull? As usual the Austrian-owned team were keeping their cards close to their chest, though Daniel Ricciardo echoed the opinion of many who watched trackside when he conceded that they aren’t quite yet on the level of Mercedes and Ferrari.


…with little to separate the midfield

If you thought there was little to choose between the three teams that are expected to be at the front, just wait until you try splitting the chasing pack. After a troubled start Williams surprised everyone with their pace (more on that below), while Force India - who recorded their best championship finish to date last year (fourth) - looked as ultra reliable as ever.

Renault, finally with a car designed and built around their own power unit, couldn’t match Force India’s reliability, but were rapidly gathering pace towards the end of testing and there is an air of growing confidence surrounding the French squad.

Toro Rosso, also Renault powered, were another to have a stop-start test programme, but then came on strong pace-wise in the latter stages with their striking STR13 machine.

Less than seven-tenths of a second covered the best laps of these four teams, with Haas just less than four tenths further back.

It all points to an extremely close midfield fight, which is not always what you expect in a year of massive regulation changes, but welcomed nonetheless.


Williams are an unknown quantity

As intimated above, could Williams be the real dark horses of 2017? Felipe Massa was fifth in the overall lap times, putting them ahead of everyone bar Ferrari and Mercedes - also the only teams to complete more laps than the Grove squad, whose FW40 machine shouted ‘hidden potential’ to many seasoned observers.

The big question is whether their testing pace was for real, and if so, will it put them at the head of the midfield pack or make them true podium contenders? Only Melbourne will tell.


It will be fast and furious

Teams may have worked hard to keep their true pace a closely-guarded secret in Barcelona, but one message emerged very clearly: lap records are going to tumble in 2017.

As our onboard comparison between the 2016 pole and Kimi Raikkonen’s 2017 testing benchmark shows, the new generation of F1 cars are immediately much faster. Despite not pushing to the maximum - and missing several apexes - pacesetter Kimi Raikkonen was 3.366s up on last year’s pole during testing. Put another way, Lewis Hamilton’s pole time from last year would have left him 20th overall in testing… and speeds are only going to increase as teams begin fine tuning set-ups and introducing performance updates.

There’s another factor at play, too: tyres. A move away from the high-degradation tyres of previous seasons looks set to allow drivers to push harder for longer during Grands Prix - bringing a whole new element to the racing, but also making lap records far more likely.

Australia might just be a step too far: Michael Schumacher’s lap record from 2004 was nearly 5s quicker than last year’s fastest lap. But when teams really unleash their full potential on Melbourne, we’ll see just how close they can come - and get an insight into just how many records will fall during the course of the season.


Fitness could decide races

Don’t be fooled by the enormous stints some drivers were doing behind the wheel in testing - 2017’s faster F1 machines are much more physically demanding than their predecessors.

But does that mean we’ll see races being decided by drivers reaching their physical limits, as world champion Nico Rosberg predicted when he made a flying visit to Barcelona to check out the ‘monstrous’ new cars in the flesh?

Certainly, the drivers are fitter than they ever have been, but then in terms of intensity testing is one thing and racing quite another. Then there are other factors to consider:

“Different tracks can be much more demanding physically,” said Valtteri Bottas. “In hotter conditions and at high-speed tracks it can be quite tough, but it’s difficult to say if that’s going to affect racing results.

“We’ll see. But definitely the sport is now at the next level in terms of physically demanding it is. I think that’s good for the sport.”

But it’s not just in the pressure-cooker environment of races where fitness could be a factor, as Carlos Sainz explains. “When we go 3-4s [per lap] quicker, our heart rates, instead of being at 150/160bpm, in quali it’ll be 180/190. So it all means you are working out a lot more - and enjoying it a lot more because the car allows you to push more.”

Drivers pushing themselves and their cars to the very limits - it’s what F1 is all about, and we should see much more of it in 2017.


Renault's reliability is under the spotlight

Renault made bold changes for 2017, with a power unit 95 percent different to 2016's, and they admitted they had seen potential problems before they or customer teams Red Bull and Toro Rosso had even turned a wheel in Barcelona. But when they did get running, the real-life experience only magnified the teething troubles.

That forced Renault to run in more conservative modes to protect their system, which in turn impacted upon all three teams’ programmes. The three Renault-engined cars completed just 1,865 laps over eight days at Barcelona - by comparison Ferrari’s trio achieved 2,459 laps, and Mercedes’ 2,681.

If that was the bad news, there was at least some light at the end of the tunnel. Having understood the problems quickly, Renault say fixes are already on the way, and will be in place before Australia.

Max Verstappen also offered a degree of encouragement with a 1m 19.438s on the final day - 0.8s off Ferrari’s ultimate benchmark. But with so much expected of Red Bull - and Daniel Ricciardo the centre of attention for his home race - the spotlight will be firmly fixed on Renault and their updates when the cars hit the track in Melbourne.


Bottas is well prepared for Hamilton battle

“It’s not going to be easy…” - that’s how Nico Rosberg rather succinctly summed up the challenge facing his Mercedes replacement, Valtteri Bottas, in 2017. And if anyone should know, it’s Rosberg.

The task facing Bottas this pre-season was already immense given the short notice of his appointment, but throw in the fact that his every move would be measured against Lewis Hamilton - that most formidable of team mates - and it was even more daunting.

But in Barcelona the Finn did everything that could have been asked of him and more, perfectly assimilating himself into the world championship-winning team whilst simultaneously clocking both the highest tally of laps of any driver and the second-quickest lap time - and all of this while adapting to a car that was, compared to his Williams, still alien in terms of handling and layout.

“For me personally it’s been very good,” Bottas said. “I’ve got good mileage, different types of runs - longer runs, shorter runs, plenty of set-up testing, getting to know how the car reacts to everything...”

But how did he compare to Hamilton?

“To be honest we’ve been running quite different programmes. Definitely on some occasions, yes, there’s been some good data to be comparing to which has been very valuable. It’s obviously been very interesting.

“So far it looks pretty close, but it’s only testing. I’m not sure either of us has been doing ‘quali 3’-type of laps here or actually being in a race situation. So far what I’ve seen I’ve made good progress. I just need to keep working like this and making sure progress continues.”


McLaren are facing the unknown

One of the main aims of testing is to highlight weaknesses in a team’s package so that they can be remedied. However, when your problems are such that you can barely string 10 laps together, the chances of further issues going undetected are huge.

That is the situation facing McLaren after a highly troubled eight days in Spain, most of those troubles stemming from Honda’s redesigned power unit. They meant a lap tally of just 425, the fewest of any team.

Compounding the problem is the fact that Honda only supply one team. Renault also had their fair share of reliability woes, but with three teams using their power unit - and hence sharing the workload - it meant they accrued over four times as many laps.

Fernando Alonso gave a blunt assessment of McLaren’s plight when he told reporters they have ‘no power and no reliability’. As he also pointed out, however, a disastrous pre-season can be turned around, citing the example of Red Bull in 2014.

That however may be wishful thinking.

Source:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... ahead.html

giantfan10
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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dans79 wrote:
Phil wrote:I am amazed no one has realized that the long run simulation that James Allen is comparing is actually Mercedes (Hamilton) from the first test, whereas both Ferrari and RedBulls is from the 2nd week.
Some here, are going to believe what they want to believe, no matter what. For example, how some get all bent out of shape when others mention that Merc usually runs heavy, and Ferrari runs light.
So explain how this unsubstantiated urban legend, which i might add cannot be proven or disproven, affects race simulations.
How does Ferrari get around the fuel required to run a full race simulation in order to run light?
oh! I get it they turn their engines up while Mercedes turn their engines down.
The reason so many people get all bent out of shape like you said is because any misstep by Mercedes or any situation that shows them in anything but a perfect light in race ,testing or whatever is usually explained away with an explanation that more often that not does not stand up under close scrutiny

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SiLo
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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So they compared Hamiltons long run from the first test, with no setup changes and engine likely turned down a lot to Ferrari and Red Bull in the second test, with setup changes and likely running slightly higher engine settings.

From what I could tell from the times, the Merc was very good in the long runs again.
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