2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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drunkf1fan
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Restomaniac wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 16:30
TAG wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 15:17
Somewhere out there, there's a fan seething, because in the end it must be Hamilton's fault.

Let it go, you'll suffer less, all suffering is caused by wishing things were different. We've got Japan and the most beautiful example of a track designed by someone who didn't have a ruler coming up.

...and everything is right with the world.

Did you guys catch the post race interview of Vettel complaining of how Mercedes used Bottas to give him a hard time while overtaking him? @the 2:16 mark. Priceless.

https://youtu.be/Cp_B8VN3wB0?t=2m8s
Amazing and hypocritical by Vet. Someone needs to remind him that his teammate did that for a full race when Vet's wheel wasn't straight.

Not only that but Bottas was simply slow, nothing more or less. He's incredibly lucky Mercedes didn't pit Bottas on the same lap as Hamilton and god only knows why they didn't. Vettel was waiting as long as he could to go onto the supersofts and push hard, Bottas was going onto the softs and Merc frequently have much better pace on the softs/medium compared to softer compounds. In Singapore despite all the ridiculous talk about Mercedes slow race pace in FP2 Hamilton's tires on the softs was fantastic, which made the doom saying over their race pace simply absurd. Bottas's times in FP2 look bad but that is because Bottas frankly looks bad in the past several races.

So Mercedes could have and should have pit Bottas earlier, had they done so Vettel was certain to have to pass him on track, now yes supersofts vs softs, but Bottas should have had better relative pace on the softs vs supersofts so he could have been held up for 15 laps. I can't comprehend how Mercedes didn't pit him first, worst tactical decision of anyone in the race.

While Vettel had good pace he was still on old softs by that point, even with both Bottas and Mercedes struggling pace they should have been able to push a couple seconds faster a lap if they wanted to for a dozen laps on fresh tires and I doubt Vettel had the sort of tire life available to beat the undercut.

Jolle
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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drunkf1fan wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 23:41
Restomaniac wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 16:30
TAG wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 15:17
Somewhere out there, there's a fan seething, because in the end it must be Hamilton's fault.

Let it go, you'll suffer less, all suffering is caused by wishing things were different. We've got Japan and the most beautiful example of a track designed by someone who didn't have a ruler coming up.

...and everything is right with the world.

Did you guys catch the post race interview of Vettel complaining of how Mercedes used Bottas to give him a hard time while overtaking him? @the 2:16 mark. Priceless.

https://youtu.be/Cp_B8VN3wB0?t=2m8s
Amazing and hypocritical by Vet. Someone needs to remind him that his teammate did that for a full race when Vet's wheel wasn't straight.

Not only that but Bottas was simply slow, nothing more or less. He's incredibly lucky Mercedes didn't pit Bottas on the same lap as Hamilton and god only knows why they didn't. Vettel was waiting as long as he could to go onto the supersofts and push hard, Bottas was going onto the softs and Merc frequently have much better pace on the softs/medium compared to softer compounds. In Singapore despite all the ridiculous talk about Mercedes slow race pace in FP2 Hamilton's tires on the softs was fantastic, which made the doom saying over their race pace simply absurd. Bottas's times in FP2 look bad but that is because Bottas frankly looks bad in the past several races.

So Mercedes could have and should have pit Bottas earlier, had they done so Vettel was certain to have to pass him on track, now yes supersofts vs softs, but Bottas should have had better relative pace on the softs vs supersofts so he could have been held up for 15 laps. I can't comprehend how Mercedes didn't pit him first, worst tactical decision of anyone in the race.

While Vettel had good pace he was still on old softs by that point, even with both Bottas and Mercedes struggling pace they should have been able to push a couple seconds faster a lap if they wanted to for a dozen laps on fresh tires and I doubt Vettel had the sort of tire life available to beat the undercut.
There is so much more Mercedes could have done if they really wanted to ruin Vettel's race if they scarified Bottas' race. They could have put him on a three stop race to hold up Vettel even more on a fresh set of supersofts. Somehow, for the outside world at least, they want some kind of fairness between their drivers and against the competition.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Jolle wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 23:55
drunkf1fan wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 23:41
Restomaniac wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 16:30

Amazing and hypocritical by Vet. Someone needs to remind him that his teammate did that for a full race when Vet's wheel wasn't straight.

Not only that but Bottas was simply slow, nothing more or less. He's incredibly lucky Mercedes didn't pit Bottas on the same lap as Hamilton and god only knows why they didn't. Vettel was waiting as long as he could to go onto the supersofts and push hard, Bottas was going onto the softs and Merc frequently have much better pace on the softs/medium compared to softer compounds. In Singapore despite all the ridiculous talk about Mercedes slow race pace in FP2 Hamilton's tires on the softs was fantastic, which made the doom saying over their race pace simply absurd. Bottas's times in FP2 look bad but that is because Bottas frankly looks bad in the past several races.

So Mercedes could have and should have pit Bottas earlier, had they done so Vettel was certain to have to pass him on track, now yes supersofts vs softs, but Bottas should have had better relative pace on the softs vs supersofts so he could have been held up for 15 laps. I can't comprehend how Mercedes didn't pit him first, worst tactical decision of anyone in the race.

While Vettel had good pace he was still on old softs by that point, even with both Bottas and Mercedes struggling pace they should have been able to push a couple seconds faster a lap if they wanted to for a dozen laps on fresh tires and I doubt Vettel had the sort of tire life available to beat the undercut.
There is so much more Mercedes could have done if they really wanted to ruin Vettel's race if they scarified Bottas' race. They could have put him on a three stop race to hold up Vettel even more on a fresh set of supersofts. Somehow, for the outside world at least, they want some kind of fairness between their drivers and against the competition.
Indeed. Can you ever imagine Mercedes letting one of their drivers stay in front with a clear issue and then leave their other driver as a buffer and ignore his pleas to be allowed to pass when he comes under pressure of losing his place.

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djos
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Restomaniac wrote:
01 Oct 2017, 10:47
I think he could see what I did. Vettel had 2/3 of the track to his right but decided he wanted to be where Stroll was. Let's blame Stroll for not vanishing though eh!!!
Very reminiscent of the Vettel-Webber Turkey incident where Vettel blamed Webber for not beaming himself off the track. #-o
Last edited by djos on 03 Oct 2017, 05:36, edited 1 time in total.
"In downforce we trust"

Wynters
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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ferkan wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 22:11
Except Vettel didnt crash into Verstapeen in Singapore and Stroll did in Vettel. But dont let the facts get into way of good story...
No one said Vettel crashed into Verstapen in Singapore. Where on earth did you pull that from? :wtf:

In related news, Perez didn't crash into Hamilton 'but don't let facts get in the way of a good story'...or something?!?! :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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drunkf1fan wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 23:41
Not only that but Bottas was simply slow, nothing more or less. He's incredibly lucky Mercedes didn't pit Bottas on the same lap as Hamilton and god only knows why they didn't. Vettel was waiting as long as he could to go onto the supersofts and push hard, Bottas was going onto the softs and Merc frequently have much better pace on the softs/medium compared to softer compounds. In Singapore despite all the ridiculous talk about Mercedes slow race pace in FP2 Hamilton's tires on the softs was fantastic, which made the doom saying over their race pace simply absurd. Bottas's times in FP2 look bad but that is because Bottas frankly looks bad in the past several races.

So Mercedes could have and should have pit Bottas earlier, had they done so Vettel was certain to have to pass him on track, now yes supersofts vs softs, but Bottas should have had better relative pace on the softs vs supersofts so he could have been held up for 15 laps. I can't comprehend how Mercedes didn't pit him first, worst tactical decision of anyone in the race.

While Vettel had good pace he was still on old softs by that point, even with both Bottas and Mercedes struggling pace they should have been able to push a couple seconds faster a lap if they wanted to for a dozen laps on fresh tires and I doubt Vettel had the sort of tire life available to beat the undercut.
These are very good points. I was actually wondering the same... as in, what could Mercedes do, to really stuff up Vettels race.

Meanwhile, James Allen posted on his website that he believed that Mercedes used Bottas to hold up Vettel enough to force Ferrari into pitting him early and have a longer stint on the less durable SS. His reasoning is that this move protected Hamilton more so, than if they had run Bottas more aggressively, e.g. by pitting Bottas early onto softs, which would have meant that Vettel could have stayed out and run his normal "stint" strategy of long soft, followed by shorter super-soft.

I'm not sure if this is entirely sound yet. I'm inclined to agree that pitting Bottas first would have been risky - yes - he would have come out on the more durable tire and quicker (fresher tires vs old SS), but Vettel clearly had a lot of pace and was running a lot quicker than Bottas. If Mercedes had pitted Bottas early, then there was the risk that Vettel would have stayed out longer and done an "overcut" on Bottas. If that had worked, then Vettel could have run on his "optimum strategy" without pitting early and he likely would have had even better pace on his last stint and crucially ended up closer to Hamilton and Ricciardo.

Like this, they could see if Vettel could overtake Bottas and if not, compromise his stint length to make him less of a danger on the SS-stint. Maybe the hope was that by pitting Vettel early, they could possibly force him into a 2-stop, or a slower 1-stop.

What Mercedes didn't know, but it was reported by AMuS in their post race analysis, is that Vettel was running a "all or nothing" race. He was driving his Ferrari at the bear limit without any fuel conservation or regards to tires. This meant that when he caught up to Ricciardo, he was already way in minus in regards to fuel. The strategy at that point was to overtake Ricciardo and go into extreme lift and coast. The overtake didn't work out and Vettel started extreme measures to save fuel. Apparently, he was coasting 600-800m before the braking points on the straights. The tires were less of a factor at that point, contrary to what Vettel said post-race.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Phil wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 08:53
drunkf1fan wrote:
02 Oct 2017, 23:41
Not only that but Bottas was simply slow, nothing more or less. He's incredibly lucky Mercedes didn't pit Bottas on the same lap as Hamilton and god only knows why they didn't. Vettel was waiting as long as he could to go onto the supersofts and push hard, Bottas was going onto the softs and Merc frequently have much better pace on the softs/medium compared to softer compounds. In Singapore despite all the ridiculous talk about Mercedes slow race pace in FP2 Hamilton's tires on the softs was fantastic, which made the doom saying over their race pace simply absurd. Bottas's times in FP2 look bad but that is because Bottas frankly looks bad in the past several races.

So Mercedes could have and should have pit Bottas earlier, had they done so Vettel was certain to have to pass him on track, now yes supersofts vs softs, but Bottas should have had better relative pace on the softs vs supersofts so he could have been held up for 15 laps. I can't comprehend how Mercedes didn't pit him first, worst tactical decision of anyone in the race.

While Vettel had good pace he was still on old softs by that point, even with both Bottas and Mercedes struggling pace they should have been able to push a couple seconds faster a lap if they wanted to for a dozen laps on fresh tires and I doubt Vettel had the sort of tire life available to beat the undercut.
These are very good points. I was actually wondering the same... as in, what could Mercedes do, to really stuff up Vettels race.

Meanwhile, James Allen posted on his website that he believed that Mercedes used Bottas to hold up Vettel enough to force Ferrari into pitting him early and have a longer stint on the less durable SS. His reasoning is that this move protected Hamilton more so, than if they had run Bottas more aggressively, e.g. by pitting Bottas early onto softs, which would have meant that Vettel could have stayed out and run his normal "stint" strategy of long soft, followed by shorter super-soft.

I'm not sure if this is entirely sound yet. I'm inclined to agree that pitting Bottas first would have been risky - yes - he would have come out on the more durable tire and quicker (fresher tires vs old SS), but Vettel clearly had a lot of pace and was running a lot quicker than Bottas. If Mercedes had pitted Bottas early, then there was the risk that Vettel would have stayed out longer and done an "overcut" on Bottas. If that had worked, then Vettel could have run on his "optimum strategy" without pitting early and he likely would have had even better pace on his last stint and crucially ended up closer to Hamilton and Ricciardo.

Like this, they could see if Vettel could overtake Bottas and if not, compromise his stint length to make him less of a danger on the SS-stint. Maybe the hope was that by pitting Vettel early, they could possibly force him into a 2-stop, or a slower 1-stop.

What Mercedes didn't know, but it was reported by AMuS in their post race analysis, is that Vettel was running a "all or nothing" race. He was driving his Ferrari at the bear limit without any fuel conservation or regards to tires. This meant that when he caught up to Ricciardo, he was already way in minus in regards to fuel. The strategy at that point was to overtake Ricciardo and go into extreme lift and coast. The overtake didn't work out and Vettel started extreme measures to save fuel. Apparently, he was coasting 600-800m before the braking points on the straights. The tires were less of a factor at that point, contrary to what Vettel said post-race.
2 things in that.
1 that must have put tons of extra stress on the ICE.
2 it does kind of throw a massive question mark about how good that new Ferrari ICE is in normal conditions compared to the Mercedes ICE.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Indeed, but they have PUs to spare if I am not mistaken, having now number 4 and 5 in the pool (of Spec #4), so they can pretty much afford to.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Phil wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 08:53
I'm not sure if this is entirely sound yet. I'm inclined to agree that pitting Bottas first would have been risky - yes - he would have come out on the more durable tire and quicker (fresher tires vs old SS), but Vettel clearly had a lot of pace and was running a lot quicker than Bottas. If Mercedes had pitted Bottas early, then there was the risk that Vettel would have stayed out longer and done an "overcut" on Bottas. If that had worked, then Vettel could have run on his "optimum strategy" without pitting early and he likely would have had even better pace on his last stint and crucially ended up closer to Hamilton and Ricciardo.

Like this, they could see if Vettel could overtake Bottas and if not, compromise his stint length to make him less of a danger on the SS-stint. Maybe the hope was that by pitting Vettel early, they could possibly force him into a 2-stop, or a slower 1-stop.

What Mercedes didn't know, but it was reported by AMuS in their post race analysis, is that Vettel was running a "all or nothing" race. He was driving his Ferrari at the bear limit without any fuel conservation or regards to tires. This meant that when he caught up to Ricciardo, he was already way in minus in regards to fuel. The strategy at that point was to overtake Ricciardo and go into extreme lift and coast. The overtake didn't work out and Vettel started extreme measures to save fuel. Apparently, he was coasting 600-800m before the braking points on the straights. The tires were less of a factor at that point, contrary to what Vettel said post-race.

Let's put it this way, from this graph

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/01/2 ... ap-charts/

You can see Vettel both passes Perez at lap 20 and has a 4 second gap on Bottas at lap 21, in clear air closing down Bottas, so that is his base pace until he catches Bottas

From here

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/01/2 ... test-laps/

we can see he did his fastest lap of the first stint on a 96.3 second lap, it actually looks like he slows before he really gets in dirty air straight away, so likely his tires overheated a bit and he had to back off and gain a little slower, tires likely running out of life a little, before being stuck behind Bottas at a 97.3 before choosing to pit immediately.

While Vettel's time using frankly too much fuel and on faster tires was a 94.5, Bottas's first lap on fresh softs was a 96.1, or considerably faster than Vettel was managing on the old softs at around 96.9 before he got slowed down by Bottas and faster than the 96.3 that was vettel's fastest lap.

At this point multiple people had pitted and improved pace by a fair amount and those were guys who pitted early so had to be more conservative. Ferrari aren't stupid, you have tires that suit their car better and will easily last half a race, but the best strategy for anyone at any time(but often ignored) is to use your tires before switching. If you want to change strategy, use every inch of tire then change, don't just throw away tire life and lap time and switch onto a longer stint. Ferrari stayed out but were at best 1 second a lap faster than Bottas, that isn't a big gap, I mean it is and Bottas was very slow, even at Vettel's fastest, using more fuel and pushing like crazy he only matched Hamilton's lap time on lap 21. The issue is that gap wasn't close to big enough to beat the undercut.

AS Mercedes tactical guys they should see the times Vettel did from lap 20, see his biggest gain was 1 second a lap and said, Vettel will pit the second he gets held up and if he pits first he'll come out ahead. If we pit first, we'll come out ahead easily, hell the 3 laps before he did a lap time matching Bottas he was only half a second faster, which again suggests that 96.3 lap was unsustainable.

Merc got everything wrong for me, they wanted to be on softs asap, they could easily do over half the race distance, the lap time difference was easily going to be enough. Hell once they saw the 96.3 on lap 21 they could have pitted bottas right then, when he was faster than Vettel that might have forced Vettel to pit 4 laps earlier than he did but he'd have a gap to close on Bottas before passing on track. If Vettel waited 5-6 laps to their preplanned pitstop time then he'd have to gain a likely 7-8 second gap using up his best tire life to catch Bottas.

Whoever made the decision to keep Bottas out screwed the pooch completely. I still think Vettel would have most likely passed Bottas, but it would certainly have been harder and contrary to Max's assessment that Hamilton wouldn't fight him hard for 1st due to the championship, Vettel would have had the opposite situation. Bottas is fighting to beat Vettel in the championship and team wise, it's better for Hamilton if Vettel stays behind, Bottas had a reason to be very aggressive where Hamilton didn't.

This is all before you realise that Mercedes could simply say, it won't make a different to Bottas to do what Vettel was doing, pit, use a higher engine mode, use more fuel for 5-10 laps then if and when Vettel passes him, save fuel/lower engine mode.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Phil wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 10:06
Indeed, but they have PUs to spare if I am not mistaken, having now number 4 and 5 in the pool (of Spec #4), so they can pretty much afford to.
I'm not certain they can keep running their ICE's in overfuel mode like that.
If as expected Vet has a gearbox penalty he will probably need to do it again in Suzuka (where it's rock hard to overtake). He could end up with 1 ICE that is practically junked inside of 2 races or 2 ICEs that have had huge loads put on them both.

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TAG
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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Vettel avoided investigation over steering wheel because it "wasn’t reported"

I swear sometimes if feels as if we're being spoon fed WWF1. :roll:
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

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iotar__
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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TAG wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 14:30
Vettel avoided investigation over steering wheel because it "wasn’t reported"
I swear sometimes if feels as if we're being spoon fed WWF1. :roll:
- Did you feel the same when FIA were cheating in Hamilton's favour in GB? As you can see investigation means nothing, so don't worry about that part.
- For me it's funny that a silly post finish crash is the only highlight :wtf: of GP and opportunity to whine for penalties for Vettel.

- Low quality driving continues. If they're worried about the show they should start giving reprimands for bumping into other cars with no attempt of a clean move.
- Ocon did it twice, took out Massa (not Perez) this time, can't have them all and a car inside is tricky. Then took himself out against Sainz and immediately started radio racer routine.

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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iotar__ wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 14:49
TAG wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 14:30
Vettel avoided investigation over steering wheel because it "wasn’t reported"
I swear sometimes if feels as if we're being spoon fed WWF1. :roll:
- Did you feel the same when FIA were cheating in Hamilton's favour in GB? As you can see investigation means nothing, so don't worry about that part.
- For me it's funny that a silly post finish crash is the only highlight :wtf: of GP and opportunity to whine for penalties for Vettel.

- Low quality driving continues. If they're worried about the show they should start giving reprimands for bumping into other cars with no attempt of a clean move.
- Ocon did it twice, took out Massa (not Perez) this time, can't have them all and a car inside is tricky. Then took himself out against Sainz and immediately started radio racer routine.
I don't recall that Hamilton did anything wrong in Great Britain. That could be me however. I do agree it's rather silly to give Vettel a penalty for not attaching the steering wheel. However, most people here do not "whine for penalties". It's simply a question why the rulebook has not been applied. Let's not dramatize this and in the future you do well yourself not to dramatize such discussions. Nobody really wants to see Vettel getting a penalty for the steering wheel.

And for the record, the race was excellent! Lots of action, and Vettel having to slice through the pack always meant we never were to get a boring race. I think drivers making more mistakes are being more on edge is exactly what F1 needed.
#AeroFrodo

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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turbof1 wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 15:21
iotar__ wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 14:49
TAG wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 14:30
Vettel avoided investigation over steering wheel because it "wasn’t reported"
I swear sometimes if feels as if we're being spoon fed WWF1. :roll:
- Did you feel the same when FIA were cheating in Hamilton's favour in GB? As you can see investigation means nothing, so don't worry about that part.
- For me it's funny that a silly post finish crash is the only highlight :wtf: of GP and opportunity to whine for penalties for Vettel.

- Low quality driving continues. If they're worried about the show they should start giving reprimands for bumping into other cars with no attempt of a clean move.
- Ocon did it twice, took out Massa (not Perez) this time, can't have them all and a car inside is tricky. Then took himself out against Sainz and immediately started radio racer routine.
I don't recall that Hamilton did anything wrong in Great Britain. That could be me however. I do agree it's rather silly to give Vettel a penalty for not attaching the steering wheel. However, most people here do not "whine for penalties". It's simply a question why the rulebook has not been applied. Let's not dramatize this and in the future you do well yourself not to dramatize such discussions. Nobody really wants to see Vettel getting a penalty for the steering wheel.

And for the record, the race was excellent! Lots of action, and Vettel having to slice through the pack always meant we never were to get a boring race. I think drivers making more mistakes are being more on edge is exactly what F1 needed.
Indeed. Like I most sports all many want is impartial and constant officiating. When you hear FIA stewards admitting that they didn't stick to the normal rules for things like not effecting the WDC then you have to question the officiating.

That's the point here. Just give us fair officiating with no agenda and that applies to all drivers. Is a penalty for a steering wheel silly. Yes. Should it be silly for everyone? Yes but it isn't and that's the point.

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

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I think a reprimand or monetary penalty would be the proper way to handle that. It's impartial that way. I believe that in past cases this was how it was handled.
#AeroFrodo