Brakes

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smusi
smusi
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Brakes

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An area the governing body should look at closely is brakes. More than 90% of overtaking is done in braking areas. So why not introduce less efficient, but safe braking systems that could increase braking distances considerably and still be useful for road car technology development?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Brakes

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would that allow a following car to stay in touch to get into an outbreaking situation? probably not very often. they got to address the downforce issue and perhaps look at the refueling. if there is still a problem downgrading the brakes might do some good. but brakes are one point where F1 is making the claim for the pinnacle of motor sport.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

roost89
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Re: Brakes

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smusi wrote:An area the governing body should look at closely is brakes. More than 90% of overtaking is done in braking areas. So why not introduce less efficient, but safe braking systems that could increase braking distances considerably and still be useful for road car technology development?
F1 brakes are still very relavent to road car development. Take disc and ceramic brakes for example, if I remember right they were first developed in F1 then transferred on to road cars.

What I want to know is why would we downgrade the pinnacle of development for the sake of road cars? It makes no sense, to me at least. It's like (this may be a bit extreme) taking the current F1 engine, pegged at 19,000 revs (which is insanely high!) and then re-pegging it at 9,000. What would be the point behind it?

I doubt that it would make any change to braking distances and overtaking to be honest.
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Re: Brakes

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I think to achieve the effect you are after they need to look at aero (which is happening) - no matter how strong your brakes, the car will only stop as well as it's tyres let it.

Weaker brakes with current aero would surely create a situation where the drivers stand on the pedal and don't even approach lock-up until the car has shed a fair bit of speed. Longer braking distance, but proabably not much more chance of passing.

With less aero grip you get your longer braking distances along with keeping a robust braking system that lets the drivers work the brakes hard throughout a race.

smusi
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Re: Brakes

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I still think that since braking is where almost ALL overtaking is done, its an area that should be lookd at. Besides, current carbon brakes have no use in roadcars, so another compound or material could be developed instead.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Brakes

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I think you would get the opposite effect. A shorter braking distance forces more errors than a long one, or so I think. If you think I'm mistaken, well, it might be, I will not argue. All I can show is that when the conditions are more extreme (like in longer straights followed by really, really tight turns, when you look for a difference of maybe 200 kph or more and over 3 G) you get more overtakes. I've shown several times a graph that presents a larger difference among tracks that among years of the calendar.

In my particular case, I find easier to make mistakes (and be overtaken) with more effective brakes. Same happens to me with throttle: I find harder to drive the cars with more power.

Besides, more effective brakes are safer, just look at the last accident: I estimate (from the video) that Kovalainen managed to diminish speed at least 100 kph in the short distance he went over asphalt. Many "modern" tracks give safety to spectators using paved runoff areas. Less effective brakes will mean a larger distance from spectators to cars.

Let's hear Willi Webber again: "Within the last 15 years, no rule change has kept what it has promised". Of course, just because Mr. Webber says so, that doesn't mean we have to lose all hope, but I've shown several times that rule changing during the last 10 years has not modified in a significant way the number of overtakings.

Yes, it's true that in the previous 10 or 15 years there were much more overtakes.

I think (humbly, I swear) that cars have progressed while tracks didn't. Maybe that explain that curious tendency, but the truth is that no one at this forum has been able to explain it: from 600 overtakes to 200 and something in 10 years and then a plateau since 1997 or so. I believe there is something deeper at work here than mere changes in regulations.

If you ask me, I believe that more regulations level the field, or so I think, but even if I'm right at that, its effect must be slight. Just look at NASCAR, where there is no braking and a lot of overtakes. In my opinion, the huge difference is in the tracks: at ovals even 4 cars can go abreast. Anyway, I'm kind of obsessed with tracks, so I must be wrong. ;)

Anyway, just in case, here is a thread that sums up the data we have gotten:

Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

If you can find any effect from braking regulations (if they have ever changed) or braking technology I would be most delighted, no sarcasm here at all, many have tried to make sense of that info (check the graph I present in page 2 of that thread, the one with the tendencies or linear regressions).
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Brakes

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Ciro Pabón wrote:... Let's hear Willi Webber again: "Within the last 15 years, no rule change has kept what it has promised". Of course, just because Mr. Webber says so, that doesn't mean we have to lose all hope, but I've shown several times that rule changing during the last 10 years has not modified in a significant way the number of overtakings....
I believe that something fundamental is different this time. In 2007 for the first time in modern F1 history majority voting started to impact on the rule changing mechanism. Before that rule changes - even those which were supported by almost all teams - were dependent of the unanimous consent of each and every team. as a result of that a lot commercial issues got tied up with technical and sporting issues. very often the timely development of rules got hung up in the process because one team held the others to ransome or saw a performance advantage in the rule that was to be changed. so through rapid development of engines, aero and tyres the cornering performance grew much faster than acceptable to the FIA and they had to resort to the "safety clause" to fix something. that had the obvious disadvantage that things are then forced in which practical consequences were not studied. how could they because the teams are the only players in the rule debate that have the resources to figure out what a rule change will probably do.

Since the teams signed up for 2008 and before the cars for 2009 got designed the teams were in the new situation that no single competitor could veto and they all did not like the CDW proposal that the FIA had come up with. So for the first time they threw some resources into a common pot and did practical research not for individual performance gain but to address what had gone wrong since the grooved tyres and the narrow tracks had been introduced for performance limitation.

I have high hopes that this approach with practical testing by joint resources of the leading teams will have a beneficial impact on the 2009 rules. I was a bit disappopinted that they decided not to go back to the wide tracks as the FIA had proposed but one has to accept what the majority see as best. my only concern is now that they are not testing the wing adjust and the KERS issue in a simulation or a test race. so all the potential adjustments will have to be made in season.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Brakes

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smusi wrote:I still think that since braking is where almost ALL overtaking is done, its an area that should be lookd at. Besides, current carbon brakes have no use in roadcars, so another compound or material could be developed instead.
there are production cars using carbon brakes