Kubica to return to racing .....

[Manoah2u]

All i can go on is the evidence of seeing SS in Gp2 for ages and not becoming anything better than a Alex Lynn, Sam Bird, Mitch Evans. They all ended up in Formula E which is were Sirotkin should go.

If he gets in to F1 it will be another Palmer, Nasr, Ericsson ect.

Manoah2u is spot on 100% and if Williams end up with Stroll and Sirotkin i hope they finish 10th in the WCC. Their driver lineup will be weaker than Toro Rosso ffs.

I'm not sure about that Toro Rosso comment though.

Gasly-Hartley imho, is a very weak combination, and as for the yet announced drivers for 2018 arguably the weakest, though we will have to await LeClerc's results in AlfaRomeo Sauber. If he disappoints, that would be rather similar in weakness.

As for Stroll, though i'm still not rather 'impressed' with him at all, he showed flashes of brilliance. I wouldn't write his Baku finish solely down to luck, as the fact is he did manage to finish there anyway. It's offcourse a team effort, but still. Yes, it's not down to speed alone, but even with a lot of big guys not where they belonged, he still finished p2, and guys like f.e. Grosjean, Magnussen, Ocon, did not. Just to paint a picture. The last third of the season (if i'd cut it in 3 parts) he was disappointing though.

But yes, if Williams does sign Sergey, that would make the combination probably as weak as Toro Rosso, even though i hold Stroll a tad better than Hartley/Gasly.

If LeClerc turns out as disappointing as Giovanazzi, then we have 3 teams with competely 'useless' drivers; Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo Sauber. Could be worse though, Palmer could have been signed.

But yes, out of sheer deserving to reap what they sew, Williams should finish 10th and dead last by far. Only to be beaten by Toro Rosso who scored just 2 points, and AlfaRomeo Sauber in front of them with 10 points total.

It's sad to say this but i've lost all respect for Williams. I would have had still some respect for them if they kept Massa instead, even though that candle has been out too long.

Kubica, Wehrlein, Kobayashi, Button, Massa, Kvyat, all of these would have been fine. But darn. Sirotkin. unbelievable.

[adrianjordan]

I'm expecting that the fans will resent Willams for this...

I do....used to be a massive Williams fan from the early 90's with Nige, through to the Montoya years and always had a soft spot for the boys and girls from Grove. They're really not the same team these days.

[adrianjordan]

Renault went out of there way to say Sirotkin deserves the seat...Why is it so hard to believe Sirotkin was just faster than Kubica?

I may be cynical, but could Renault be saying that to weaken a competitor.... Maybe they worried that Kubica in a Williams could be beating their own drivers...

[netoperek]

Renault went out of there way to say Sirotkin deserves the seat...Why is it so hard to believe Sirotkin was just faster than Kubica?

I may be cynical, but could Renault be saying that to weaken a competitor.... Maybe they worried that Kubica in a Williams could be beating their own drivers...

Nah. They're being honest - Sirotkin was too fast for their car, so they had to keep him out of it. Williams must have developed some serious sh.t to be so confident it will not implode with SS on the seat.
More seriously, Renault know pretty damn well just how good Kubica is. James Allison's quote from 2010:
"If we can give him a car that's even half capable of getting a championship he'll get one," Allison said. "Not everyone in the pit lane can say that about their drivers. He's properly committed to being a world champion, no doubt about that. He is one of those very, very top guys where you know that if the car is not running at the front it's because of the car, not him."
They opted for engine/Sainz deal themselves instead of Kubica, but they have arguably strong enough lineup for their needs. Its only natural they don't want to see their opponents strenghten. SS has been at Renault for some time now and then suddenly they're pushing him out to another team advertising his talents. It must be coincidence.

[ringo]

I think SS is simply the better driver at this point in time. Forget about 6 years ago for the moment.
He is being treated unfairly with no evidence whatosover but rose tinted googles from Kubica's past career as an F1 driver. If Kubica was or still is as fast as Hamilton, Williams would have signed him from the first test.

He was good back then, but i don't think he is the same after his accident, just like how Massa wasn't the same after his.
That just makes it easier for small fries like SS to step in and beat up on him in these tests and win out.

SS is younger, doesn't need a handicap engineered into his car to perform, apparently manages the tyres better, and he has more money. Why would Williams be stupid for hiring him if he is ticking the boxes?
And why hire Kubica because he WAS good, when they should hire him on the basis of having what it takes right now?

Let's be practical about this. What i do hope is that he swallows his pride and try get some practice sessions in, maybe in force india or renault and then prepare himself better for 2019, or in the event one of the newbies fail to shine in Torro Rosso.

[RedNEO]

Renault went out of there way to say Sirotkin deserves the seat...Why is it so hard to believe Sirotkin was just faster than Kubica?

I may be cynical, but could Renault be saying that to weaken a competitor.... Maybe they worried that Kubica in a Williams could be beating their own drivers...

Lol nice, But as we know Williams has the data on both drivers so lying to them would be pointless.

[Manoah2u]

I'm expecting that the fans will resent Willams for this...

I do....used to be a massive Williams fan from the early 90's with Nige, through to the Montoya years and always had a soft spot for the boys and girls from Grove. They're really not the same team these days.

Likewise.

Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Montoya.
Not long after Montoya's departure things went downhill with Williams.

Seems like I was wrongly enthousiastic about their 'return' to the front of the field in 2014. That was almost all down to the Mercedes engine and buddies with AMG Mercedes combo. The Martini sponsorship also gave me hopes of a stable return to climb back to the front.

I honestly thought the days of those with cr*p like Maldonado were over. Well, it's gotten worse even.

Anyway,

there's always Kubica replacing Hulkenberg in 2019......

[Manoah2u]

Some more from pirelli

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/kubi ... li-995899/

Kubica "deserves the opportunity" to return to Formula 1 and "show us his potential again", according to Pirelli racing manager Mario Isola.

Williams is now expected to give that drive to former Renault reserve Sergey Sirotkin... and carries substantial backing from Russian bank SMP.

But Isola reckons Kubica needs time to further adapt to a formula that has changed drastically since the Pole last contested a grand prix, and says he should be given another chance to see how far he can take his comeback.

"The point is that he was not driving since long time and needed some time to adapt," Isola told Motorsport.com
"I believe he did a good job, honestly. Then, the decision to take one driver or another is a different story.

"I'm not criticising the decision. I'm just saying, for me, he deserves the opportunity, the possibility to show us his potential again.

"He had to learn to the car. Also, it was two sessions of half a day each, so to learn all the package is not so easy.

"Consider also we are talking about a 2017 car that is a lot different from the 2011 car; also the 2016, so it was a different car with a much better performance.

"He's not a young driver but clearly he needs some time to adapt to the new situation. For me, considering all that, the performance was more than good."

Kubica has tested for Renault and Williams using specially adapted controls, but otherwise insists he suffers no physical limitations to his driving, a position Isola supports from his own observation.

"I don't believe he has any limitation," Isola added. "He was able to drive the car as the others driver [did]. I didn't see any limitation."

and

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/kubi ... 18-995381/

Kubica in talks for Williams support role for 2018

Kubica was purely focused on getting a race seat in F1 this season, but when it became clear that was unlikely to happen, he and his team switched tact.
Talks regarding alternative options began, with Kubica keen to be involved with Williams in some guise during the coming campaign.

It is understood discussions are centred around a supporting role, helping drive car performance and development, with the potential for more time behind the wheel.

Such a move would make sense for both sides, with Williams gaining an experienced driver to support what is likely to be an inexperienced line-up.

Kubica will get more time to prove he can compete at the highest level again.

[NathanOlder]

All i can go on is the evidence of seeing SS in Gp2 for ages and not becoming anything better than a Alex Lynn, Sam Bird, Mitch Evans. They all ended up in Formula E which is were Sirotkin should go.

If he gets in to F1 it will be another Palmer, Nasr, Ericsson ect.

Manoah2u is spot on 100% and if Williams end up with Stroll and Sirotkin i hope they finish 10th in the WCC. Their driver lineup will be weaker than Toro Rosso ffs.

I'm not sure about that Toro Rosso comment though.

Gasly-Hartley imho, is a very weak combination, and as for the yet announced drivers for 2018 arguably the weakest, though we will have to await LeClerc's results in AlfaRomeo Sauber. If he disappoints, that would be rather similar in weakness.

As for Stroll, though i'm still not rather 'impressed' with him at all, he showed flashes of brilliance. I wouldn't write his Baku finish solely down to luck, as the fact is he did manage to finish there anyway. It's offcourse a team effort, but still. Yes, it's not down to speed alone, but even with a lot of big guys not where they belonged, he still finished p2, and guys like f.e. Grosjean, Magnussen, Ocon, did not. Just to paint a picture. The last third of the season (if i'd cut it in 3 parts) he was disappointing though.

But yes, if Williams does sign Sergey, that would make the combination probably as weak as Toro Rosso, even though i hold Stroll a tad better than Hartley/Gasly.

If LeClerc turns out as disappointing as Giovanazzi, then we have 3 teams with competely 'useless' drivers; Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo Sauber. Could be worse though, Palmer could have been signed.

But yes, out of sheer deserving to reap what they sew, Williams should finish 10th and dead last by far. Only to be beaten by Toro Rosso who scored just 2 points, and AlfaRomeo Sauber in front of them with 10 points total.

It's sad to say this but i've lost all respect for Williams. I would have had still some respect for them if they kept Massa instead, even though that candle has been out too long.

Kubica, Wehrlein, Kobayashi, Button, Massa, Kvyat, all of these would have been fine. But darn. Sirotkin. unbelievable.

I was going on pre F1 records as between the 4 drivers in question, they have less than 30 races experience.

Hartley & Gasly have
1 x GP2 Title (gasly)
2 x Euro Formula 2.0 Titles (gasly & hartley)
2 x FIA World Endurance Championships (hartley)
1 x Le Mans winner (hartley)

Stroll & Sirotkin have
1 x Euro F3 Title (stroll)
1 x Italian F4 Title (stroll)
1 x Toyota Racing Series Title (stroll)
1 x Euro Formula Arbarth Title (sirotkin)


I feel the Titles won by the Toro Rosso pair carry much MUCH more weight than the Titles of the potential Williams Pair. This is the reason i rate the Toro Rosso pair as slightly stronger.

[Manoah2u]

All i can go on is the evidence of seeing SS in Gp2 for ages and not becoming anything better than a Alex Lynn, Sam Bird, Mitch Evans. They all ended up in Formula E which is were Sirotkin should go.

If he gets in to F1 it will be another Palmer, Nasr, Ericsson ect.

Manoah2u is spot on 100% and if Williams end up with Stroll and Sirotkin i hope they finish 10th in the WCC. Their driver lineup will be weaker than Toro Rosso ffs.

I'm not sure about that Toro Rosso comment though.

Gasly-Hartley imho, is a very weak combination, and as for the yet announced drivers for 2018 arguably the weakest, though we will have to await LeClerc's results in AlfaRomeo Sauber. If he disappoints, that would be rather similar in weakness.

As for Stroll, though i'm still not rather 'impressed' with him at all, he showed flashes of brilliance. I wouldn't write his Baku finish solely down to luck, as the fact is he did manage to finish there anyway. It's offcourse a team effort, but still. Yes, it's not down to speed alone, but even with a lot of big guys not where they belonged, he still finished p2, and guys like f.e. Grosjean, Magnussen, Ocon, did not. Just to paint a picture. The last third of the season (if i'd cut it in 3 parts) he was disappointing though.

But yes, if Williams does sign Sergey, that would make the combination probably as weak as Toro Rosso, even though i hold Stroll a tad better than Hartley/Gasly.

If LeClerc turns out as disappointing as Giovanazzi, then we have 3 teams with competely 'useless' drivers; Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo Sauber. Could be worse though, Palmer could have been signed.

But yes, out of sheer deserving to reap what they sew, Williams should finish 10th and dead last by far. Only to be beaten by Toro Rosso who scored just 2 points, and AlfaRomeo Sauber in front of them with 10 points total.

It's sad to say this but i've lost all respect for Williams. I would have had still some respect for them if they kept Massa instead, even though that candle has been out too long.

Kubica, Wehrlein, Kobayashi, Button, Massa, Kvyat, all of these would have been fine. But darn. Sirotkin. unbelievable.

I was going on pre F1 records as between the 4 drivers in question, they have less than 30 races experience.

Hartley & Gasly have
1 x GP2 Title (gasly)
2 x Euro Formula 2.0 Titles (gasly & hartley)
2 x FIA World Endurance Championships (hartley)
1 x Le Mans winner (hartley)

Stroll & Sirotkin have
1 x Euro F3 Title (stroll)
1 x Italian F4 Title (stroll)
1 x Toyota Racing Series Title (stroll)
1 x Euro Formula Arbarth Title (sirotkin)


I feel the Titles won by the Toro Rosso pair carry much MUCH more weight than the Titles of the potential Williams Pair. This is the reason i rate the Toro Rosso pair as slightly stronger.

Good point there. I actually didn't know Hartley won LeMans
Would be funny if he pops out in 2018 driving a beast ToroRosso and becomes WDC, then does a indy 500 for fun and crushes Alonso doing so

Still, i'd be more interested too in knowing to whom they were up in their championship achievements, and how long it took for them to grab their titles.

[Raleigh]

If LeClerc turns out as disappointing as Giovanazzi, then we have 3 teams with competely 'useless' drivers; Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo Sauber. Could be worse though, Palmer could have been signed.

I know this is slightly off-topic, but watch this and tell me you aren't excited to see Leclerc in an F1 car...

[NathanOlder]

Still, i'd be more interested too in knowing to whom they were up in their championship achievements, and how long it took for them to grab their titles.

These are the people that were the people who were 2nd/3rd in the years that these guys won their titles. Again , i feel the people Hartley and Gasly beat were bigger scalps than the guys Stroll and Sirotkin beat

Gasly
Gp2 Title - Giovanazzi, Sirotkin (ironic)
Euro Renault 2.0 - Rowland, Ocon.

Hartley
Renault 2.0 - Charles Pic, Lancaster
WEC - Lotterer/Fassler/Treluyer
WEC - Buemi, Nakajima, Davidson.

Stroll
Italian F4 - Drudi, Russo
Toyota Series - Maisano, Ferrucci
Euro F3 - Gunther, Russel

Sirotkin
Abarth Euro - Niederhauser, Heche

[netoperek]

I think SS is simply the better driver at this point in time. Forget about 6 years ago for the moment.
He is being treated unfairly with no evidence whatosover but rose tinted googles from Kubica's past career as an F1 driver. If Kubica was or still is as fast as Hamilton, Williams would have signed him from the first test.

He was good back then, but i don't think he is the same after his accident, just like how Massa wasn't the same after his.
That just makes it easier for small fries like SS to step in and beat up on him in these tests and win out.

SS is younger, doesn't need a handicap engineered into his car to perform, apparently manages the tyres better, and he has more money. Why would Williams be stupid for hiring him if he is ticking the boxes?
And why hire Kubica because he WAS good, when they should hire him on the basis of having what it takes right now?

Let's be practical about this. What i do hope is that he swallows his pride and try get some practice sessions in, maybe in force india or renault and then prepare himself better for 2019, or in the event one of the newbies fail to shine in Torro Rosso.

I understand Your point of view and it indeed seems logical from one perspective. I even told I feel sorry for SS as he must probably achieve more than drivers with less support to prove his worth. His critics may also be unjustly too hard on him.
The problem I see in this situation is that it is not obvious. No one really cares or wants to make it more clear as well. It's all speculative. In such conditions, it's virtually impossible to judge real performance or potential.
Kubica had one real shot on 2018 hypersofts, one lap to prove everything. In a new car, on new tires, with not so much of a preparation, with team deciding on how much of true pace they want to show (PU setting, fuel level, etc) He obviously had not made it a perfect lap (Mark Hughes pointed out his purple mini sectors would combine into a much better laptime). This single try is currently used as the only benchmark of Kubica's ability, as he had no chance to make a flier in Hungaroring at all. Rest of his latest test driving would have to be calculated with numerous situational factors in mind to be even somewhat representative. Something that cannot be done without a knowledge only Williams and Renault have, but are reluctant to share. As SS and RK were apparently doing different programs it's even hard to compare their drives on other compounds. SS have not driven a single lap on Ultrasofts (iirc), yet now its a common theme that he had managed new tires better and is all round faster. Without even driving them! See how fishy it seems from different perspective?

Just after the test, whole Williams team gave Kubica a standing ovation. After Hungaroring everyone was impressed. During "rehabilitation process" driving he has shown speed in everything he drove. What's more important, Hungary test (I haven't found comprehensive info on Abu dhabi test, so can't really tell it's story progress-wise) has shown progress with each successive stint. Test which took place because Kubica impressed in Valencia, where he has been directly compared to SS. If he has been slower then, would Renault give such precious testing time to a "expired" driver? After Abu Dhabi, Lowe said Kubica was at work not on show and his comments like these "[His feedback is] very good. He is a driver of tremendous experience and very knowledgable around his work. His job is a professional racing driver so he has that confidence and you can feel it in the garage – so everybody’s happy with Robert.” and many other similar, may suggest he did a pretty decent at that.

I don't mind Williams picking a better driver. I'm actually all for it. Problem is, there is no clear indication which one is it. Williams is in a position to shape opinion on the subject as they please, regardless of what is true. And when money and politics come into play, combined with information embargo, wildest theories can thrive. After all F1 is a business not a sentimental play. Kubica is still probably a risk and Sirotkin is probably an instant profit. I personally would still respect Williams if they admitted they foremost want or need cash (if that would be the case, of course), but I imagine it can't happen in today's PR obsessed world.

TL;DR
With nothing certain and everything open for debate, I still think Kubica is the better driver as I haven't seen enough evidence to prove me wrong. You are absolutely free to have a different opinion and it's as justified as mine.
At this point either can be right and hopefully we can verify somehow, someday.

[marmer]

Still, i'd be more interested too in knowing to whom they were up in their championship achievements, and how long it took for them to grab their titles.

These are the people that were the people who were 2nd/3rd in the years that these guys won their titles. Again , i feel the people Hartley and Gasly beat were bigger scalps than the guys Stroll and Sirotkin beat

Gasly
Gp2 Title - Giovanazzi, Sirotkin (ironic)
Euro Renault 2.0 - Rowland, Ocon.

Hartley
Renault 2.0 - Charles Pic, Lancaster
WEC - Lotterer/Fassler/Treluyer
WEC - Buemi, Nakajima, Davidson.

Stroll
Italian F4 - Drudi, Russo
Toyota Series - Maisano, Ferrucci
Euro F3 - Gunther, Russel

Sirotkin
Abarth Euro - Niederhauser, Heche

for Sirotkin he never actually raced against anyone who made it to f1 in that series either. when he did come across some talent in the 2013 Formula Renault 3.5 Series he was thrashed by k mag, stoff and WILL STEVENS
in 2014 Formula Renault 3.5 Series he was beaten by Sainz, Gasly and Merhi
2015 GP2 Series was beaten easily by stoff and Rossi although he did manage to beat Gasly to be fair until the following year when Gasly won it and even Giovinazzi finished above him. so at what point other than money has he really done to get a full time drive in formula 1 and he isn't even the best Russian personally for a young driver to throw money at Artem Markelov would be a better bet. but more odd is kvyat not much older and a far better race driver than either. both in junior categories and has actual f1 experience with decent results until red bull destroyed him.

sorry williams but your being silly taking the money on him. he lost to Will Stevens for god sake

[santos]

Williams is not being silly. They need Money. And if it wasn't the Money, maybe they would be in a worst position then Sauber was. I would really love to see Kubica again in F1, but most of the people thinks about what he was before the crash. I still don't know if he is able to run a full season now. And if he is ok, why didn't Renault choose him to replace Palmer?