Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Mercedes blaming software glitch is a normal thing because it indeed was the software which provided them with false data.

However, I find it ridiculous to just being focused on a computer and kind of blindly believe everything it tells. What about having trust in experience and simple know-how? Taking two factors into correlation would have been enough: Pitting under VSC would take about 12,5 seconds and the gap between Vettel and Lewis was just a bit under 12 seconds. Would it have been really that hard to look at it this way to at least check if they were safe?

It's like doing a U-turn in a tunnel just because the navigation device tells me to do so. That's what Mercedes has done.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

eleventenths wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 02:51
Vettel didn't win in Australia by luck or some "Computer Glitch". He won because Mercedes were incompetent.
Those are strong words, I assume from someone with technical IT experience or programming skills? I'm not sure what warrants a topic being created on this topic alone. If the aim is to simply criticize the official one-line explanation of why the race was lost by Mercedes, then by all means carry on. As a matter of fact however, the program/simulation that does the tracking and ultimately tells the strategists if a gap is sufficient or not is probably a little more complex than simply punching in a few numbers or hitting a few switches.

For one, the simulation is track specific. That means that every track represents a unique set of variables. Pit time loss is different, so is the influence on a potential safety car or virtual safety car. I also assume that in case of a virtual safety car, as was the case in Melbourne, that the delta drivers need to drive to is not a fixed number. It varies, probably at the discretion of the race-director. Depending on what delta drivers must drive to, it changes the outcome of the simulation. Obviously, the slower the delta time, the more time is saved when entering the pits relative to those staying out on track.

Then there is also the point that a car may accelerate on pit entry and pit exit without impacting the allowed delta that is given. This of course also adds a significant factor, one that I assume added to how Mercedes lost the race. In some interview, Toto said that according to their "software", a gap of 15 second [to Vettel] would be sufficient to retain the lead even if he pitted under the VSC. At that point, Vettel was under that, at 12 second, which would yield a 3 second safety margin if you like. By analysis of ORF (Austrian broadcast), when Vettel entered the pits, the gap increased from 12 to 16 seconds. I assume this was as a direct result of his accelerating in just the right time.

When Vettel came out of the pits, he was nigh on ahead, perhaps by a second at most, so the gap of 15 seconds was perhaps accurate at the assumption that a car entering the pits would not accelerate. So the "error" was most likely to be found there.

For what it's worth, I also think that Toto was speaking of a "software glitch" moments after the race when analysis of how and why wasn't completed. From his point of view at that point, it was that something went wrong in the simulation. I am not entirely sure they realized that the error was in fact none and that Vettel was aware of some loophole in the regulations that allowed him to accelerate on pit entry without consequence.

For the record, Vettel has always been very good with exploring the limits of regulations. There was a case where i.e. he once placed his car outside the box at the start of the race (after the formation lap) without consequence because at the time, it was insufficiently regulated how the cars must be placed inside their starting box.

As for the software that determines if a car has a sufficient gap or not - Monaco 2015 comes to mind when the team pitted Hamilton from a very significant lead towards the end of the race believing he would retain it. Obviously, the calculations weren't correct, as he then came out behind both Vettel and Rosberg who hadn't pitted. Thus the conclusion must be that the software/simulation is very sophisticated, but relies on very accurate numbers of the track and GPS tracking (or gaps) of the cars.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

netoperek
netoperek
12
Joined: 21 Sep 2010, 23:06

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Well, if Mercedes is using software based on automated decision making oriented language, i.e. prolog or similar (that's what I would use for such problem), what they get is a problem solution or set of solutions, best matching weighted cost for known constraints, variables and facts in a given time. My guess would be, that they were constantly monitoring the outcome and made an instant decision, when the board was green, without recalculating given solution manually, as that would take too much time to make thoroughly and could end up in missing the window. In such case it would indeed be a "glitch", understood as an outcome based on a condition unaccounted for or badly tuned weights in an algorithm.
If it's what I think it is, such software is written to take into consideration all or at least very wide spectrum of possible solutions, depending on cut-off conditions, periodically. That kind of program is not precedural, it is fact-constraint oriented, so if they feeded it with underestimated facts or badly thought/uncomplete constraints set, it could provide faulty solution. Troubleshooting of such software is pretty tricky when it gets complex, so my bet would be on bad speed prediction in VSC scenario.

User avatar
TAG
20
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 16:18
Location: in a good place

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

They used "computers" to build a car that looks as if it will bitch slap all other manufacturers this year. It can go both ways.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

User avatar
JasonF1
1
Joined: 21 Feb 2016, 20:45

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Here is my take on what happened:

Lewis was 11.7s behind Vettel just before the VSC appeared, however that jumped to 16.2s JUST BEFORE Vettel pit. This time jump is due to the fact that the VSC maintain the distance delta between two drivers and not the time delta (Before the last race, I thought the VSC maintained the time delta so I was surprised when the time delta jumped from 11.7s to 16.2s). Once Vettel rejoined the track, he was about 1s in front of Lewis. Mercedes said they needed Lewis to be less than 15s behind Vettel in order to be safe. As such, they thought he had a 3s margin.

Considering the above numbers, it can be said that Mercedes were correct in their assessment that Vettel would lose 15s while pitting under VSC (16s-15s=1s) and correctly accounted for the fact that the speed was unlimited on pit entry & exit. What they completely missed was that the activation of the VSC would INCREASE the time delta between Lewis and Vettel (from 11.7s to 16.2s).

So the group who coded the program did a massive and costly oversight and forgot to include that parameter. What they were seeing was the safe margin under VSC BUT not the safe margin under normal racing conditions. If properly coded, the software should have displayed that Lewis needed to be less than 10s-11s behind Vettel in order to be safe.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

JasonF1 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 18:28
Considering the above numbers, it can be said that Mercedes were correct in their assessment that Vettel would lose 15s while pitting under VSC (16s-15s=1s) and correctly accounted for the fact that the speed was unlimited on pit entry & exit. What they completely missed was that the activation of the VSC would INCREASE the time delta between Lewis and Vettel (from 11.7s to 16.2s).
I'm pretty sure this is the real issue!
201 105 104 9 9 7

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

JasonF1 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 18:28
What they completely missed was that the activation of the VSC would INCREASE the time delta between Lewis and Vettel (from 11.7s to 16.2s).
I'm not so sure I agree. The whole point of the VSC is to keep the distances and gaps of drivers intact and unchanged. Lets assume a gap of two drivers to be 10 seconds exact. Assuming a long enough straight, both traveling at VMAX (lets assume that to be 100m/s), that would equate a physical distance between the two drivers of 1km (10*100m). At different points on the track, a 10 second gap will, depending on the speed, result in a differentm physical distance.

Logically, the slower the cars are driving, the closer the physical gap/distance will be between them.

Traveling at 10m/s, a gap of 10 seconds will equate to 100 meters.
Traveling at 50m/s, a gap of 10 seconds will equate to 500 meters.
Traveling at 100m/s, a gap of 10 seconds will equate to 1000 meters.

When a VSC period is enforced, the drivers are issued with a time delta at the same time for the corresponding marshalling sector they are in. Thus they will have to maintain a certain speed to be within that time delta given.

Quote from the sporting regulations:
Sporting Regulations wrote:40.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track between each of the FIA light panels). In addition, any driver entering the pit lane whilst the VSC procedure is in use must be above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at the first safety car line as he enters the pit lane.
I'm going to assume that the time delta given for each "marshalling sector" is given to reflect a general and balanced reduction of speed. On a straight, the cars will be traveling faster, on marshalling sectors with corners, they will be traveling slower. Overall, on the entirety of a whole lap, all gaps in seconds should remain consistent among drivers. Of course, the system is not error proof. A driver on a straight when the VSC phase is activated may be "hurt" more than a driver already in a slower sector. How much this may impact the gap is anyone's guess. Assuming the VSC period ends precisely when the cars are all in the physical same spot then when they entered, in theory the difference should be minimal...

EDIT: Just watching the TV coverage, I think you may be correct in that Vettel gained about 4-5 seconds after the VSC period started. This may be indeed due to Vettel and Hamilton being on different parts of the track and one being hurt more than the other by the impact of having to drive to the supplied deltas...?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Phil wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 19:51
EDIT: Just watching the TV coverage, I think you may be correct in that Vettel gained about 4-5 seconds after the VSC period started. This may be indeed due to Vettel and Hamilton being on different parts of the track and one being hurt more than the other by the impact of having to drive to the supplied deltas...?
Watch Vettel during pit in & pit out, when he gets off the track he guns it till he hits the pit lane speed limit line. On pit exit he guns it as well.
201 105 104 9 9 7

Dashy902
Dashy902
0
Joined: 05 Mar 2017, 06:33

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Phil, the time difference between racing speed and VSC speed is explained by the fact that the time gap at racing speed specifically is maintained, so when everyone slows down for the VSC, the time difference between racers is multiplied by the difference in speed for a specific section to get the VSC time gap.

Say for example there are 11 seconds between two racers for a mini-sector where the average speed is typically 150 km/h. If, at VSC speeds, that mini-sector has to be completed to a minimum time that corresponds to an average speed of 100 km/h, the temporary time delta between the drivers under VSC conditions becomes (150/100) * 11 seconds, or 16.5 seconds.

User avatar
TAG
20
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 16:18
Location: in a good place

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

The argument is being made, what's to stop a driver from driving through the pits and gaining an advantage every lap the VSC is out. The answer is nothing.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Dashy902 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:12
Phil, the time difference between racing speed and VSC speed is explained by the fact that the time gap at racing speed specifically is maintained, so when everyone slows down for the VSC, the time difference between racers is multiplied by the difference in speed for a specific section to get the VSC time gap.

Say for example there are 11 seconds between two racers for a mini-sector where the average speed is typically 150 km/h. If, at VSC speeds, that mini-sector has to be completed to a minimum time that corresponds to an average speed of 100 km/h, the temporary time delta between the drivers under VSC conditions becomes (150/100) * 11 seconds, or 16.5 seconds.
So what you are saying and suggesting, is that the VSC does not maintain the gap between cars in seconds but in distance.

Example:

Distance between driver A and B equals 10 seconds. Both are driving at 100m/s. The gap at those speeds equals 1000m.

A VSC is invoked. Both competitors are required to reduce the speed. The gap stays at 1000m but now both are driving at half the speed. At 50m/s, the gap in seconds becomes 20s.

When the VSC ends, both accelerate back up to 100m/s with the gap still maintained at 1000m and the time difference goes back to being 10s.

Correct?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

probenprinz
probenprinz
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2012, 01:05

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

Correct.
If you want to keep the distance in time and reduce the speed the only solution of the problem is halve the space which is obviously impossible

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

TAG wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:48
The argument is being made, what's to stop a driver from driving through the pits and gaining an advantage every lap the VSC is out. The answer is nothing.
Another loophole that the FIA overlooked.
201 105 104 9 9 7

User avatar
JasonF1
1
Joined: 21 Feb 2016, 20:45

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

TAG wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:48
The argument is being made, what's to stop a driver from driving through the pits and gaining an advantage every lap the VSC is out. The answer is nothing.
You still lose more time going through the pit lane under VSC than going through the straight under VSC speed. As Mercedes have calculated, 15s.

User avatar
TAG
20
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 16:18
Location: in a good place

Re: Is it More Palatable to Blame Computers When Things go Wrong?

Post

JasonF1 wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 03:06
TAG wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 20:48
The argument is being made, what's to stop a driver from driving through the pits and gaining an advantage every lap the VSC is out. The answer is nothing.
You still lose more time going through the pit lane under VSC than going through the straight under VSC speed. As Mercedes have calculated, 15s.
That would depend on where you are relative to the car you're trying to gain time on.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत