Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

http://www.moog.com/markets/motorsport/ ... sport.html

I dunno guys, these thingies seem to be on that airbox.

http://www.moog.com/content/dam/moog/li ... eet-en.pdf

"Our range of sub-miniature actuators are optimized specifically for motorsport applications: Throttle Barrels, Inlet Trumpets, Turbocharger Waste-Gate, Turbocharger Inlet Guide Vane, Clutch, Gear Shift."

[Tommy Cookers]

and unfortunately ....

aircraft control surface actuators (necessarily hydraulic) are these days called all-electric actuators
meaning servo-hydraulics based but now these are powered internally so there's electrical-only connection to the external

as our car's power steering is hydraulic internally and has only electrical connections

[trinidefender]

and unfortunately ....

aircraft control surface actuators (necessarily hydraulic) are these days called all-electric actuators
meaning servo-hydraulics based but now these are powered internally so there's electrical-only connection to the external

as our car's power steering is hydraulic internally and has only electrical connections

According to this thread (obviously it can be wrong), some of the control surfaces are electric. Are you saying that they are still hydraulic even though stated as electric?

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776097

[Tommy Cookers]

flaps slats and maybe spoilers I wouldn't call control surfaces - actuation stiffness may be required but no bandwidth

at a glance your link seems confirmation to me

DARPA had/has a research program of so-called 'all-electric' flight control actuation
'all-electric' meaning a hydraulic actuator with the hydraulically energisation onboard (the actuator)
so as far as aircraft designers and users are concerned there is no hydraulic connection hence categorisation 'all-electric'
I notice that 'all-electric' seems often to be written all-electric

[godlameroso]

and unfortunately ....

aircraft control surface actuators (necessarily hydraulic) are these days called all-electric actuators
meaning servo-hydraulics based but now these are powered internally so there's electrical-only connection to the external

as our car's power steering is hydraulic internally and has only electrical connections

According to this thread (obviously it can be wrong), some of the control surfaces are electric. Are you saying that they are still hydraulic even though stated as electric?

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776097

Electrically controlled hydraulically actuated. Of course you could use an electric motor only and sure it can be fast. The downside would be hysterisis without some method of damping actuation. Hydraulic activation is internally damped so much lower hysteresis is inherent.

[Tommy Cookers]

control surface actuation on a high speed relaxed aerodynamic stability (ie combat) aircraft needs a bandwidth c. 20 Hz
ride control is presumably standard
yes they presumably also need a very high bandwidth structure - imo why the stiffness of 'carbon fibre' is so useful

impossible with electric actuation
possible with servo-hydraulic actuation due to its far higher energy density etc

[trinidefender]

flaps slats and maybe spoilers I wouldn't call control surfaces - actuation stiffness may be required but no bandwidth

at a glance your link seems confirmation to me

DARPA had/has a research program of so-called 'all-electric' flight control actuation
'all-electric' meaning a hydraulic actuator with the hydraulically energisation onboard (the actuator)
so as far as aircraft designers and users are concerned there is no hydraulic connection hence categorisation 'all-electric'
I notice that 'all-electric' seems often to be written all-electric

Spoilers are the main form of roll control at mid to higher speed on commercial aircraft so I would be surprised if bandwidth wouldn't be a major design consideration.

Thoughts?

[Tommy Cookers]

flap the control stick eg in roll a bit energetically ? the computers will 'dumb down' your demand
remember the Queens Airbus breakup
aerodynamic (dominating artificial) stability is demanded on civil aircraft is structural bandwidths are so low eg 1hz fuselage

anyway I was suggesting that F1 vlims could do fine with (non-solenoidal) electric actuation

[trinidefender]

control surface actuation on a high speed relaxed aerodynamic stability (ie combat) aircraft needs a bandwidth c. 20 Hz
impossible with electric actuation
possible with servo-hydraulic actuation due to its far higher energy density etc

Hmmmm. As an example, the autopilot system on the S76D and S76C++ (helicopters both of which I am familiar on as well as other Sikorsky products) have 2 types of actuators in the autopilot/stabilisation system. What are termed trim and series actuators. Both of which are purely electric. The series actuators are used for flight stabilisation; rate dampening of flight control movements and providing a large part of keeping the aircraft in the attitude commanded by the pilot or coupled autopilot system. The actuators have a few cm's of travel with a fairly high bandwidth (not sure if as high as 20Hz).

Just wrote this here because I thought it might be similar to the kind of requirements needed for this application in F1.

On another note, would the VLIM really require that high of a bandwidth? What is the time taken from idle to red line in first gear?

[godlameroso]

control surface actuation on a high speed relaxed aerodynamic stability (ie combat) aircraft needs a bandwidth c. 20 Hz
impossible with electric actuation
possible with servo-hydraulic actuation due to its far higher energy density etc

Hmmmm. As an example, the autopilot system on the S76D and S76C++ (helicopters both of which I am familiar on as well as other Sikorsky products) have 2 types of actuators in the autopilot/stabilisation system. What are termed trim and series actuators. Both of which are purely electric. The series actuators are used for flight stabilisation; rate dampening of flight control movements and providing a large part of keeping the aircraft in the attitude commanded by the pilot or coupled autopilot system. The actuators have a few cm's of travel with a fairly high bandwidth (not sure if as high as 20Hz).

Just wrote this here because I thought it might be similar to the kind of requirements needed for this application in F1.

On another note, would the VLIM really require that high of a bandwidth? What is the time taken from idle to red line in first gear?

The VLIMs need to move very quickly, as faster than the driver can press the throttle. On a semi-related note, what do you suppose are the time scales during combustion? And what time scales can be simulated accurately? ms, micro?

[Tommy Cookers]

presumably the VLIMs need to move in proportion with PU rpm
the fastest about 15 millisec (ie full torque in 1 gear to full torque in the next gear) for the 15% rpm change on shifting

[trinidefender]

control surface actuation on a high speed relaxed aerodynamic stability (ie combat) aircraft needs a bandwidth c. 20 Hz
impossible with electric actuation
possible with servo-hydraulic actuation due to its far higher energy density etc

Hmmmm. As an example, the autopilot system on the S76D and S76C++ (helicopters both of which I am familiar on as well as other Sikorsky products) have 2 types of actuators in the autopilot/stabilisation system. What are termed trim and series actuators. Both of which are purely electric. The series actuators are used for flight stabilisation; rate dampening of flight control movements and providing a large part of keeping the aircraft in the attitude commanded by the pilot or coupled autopilot system. The actuators have a few cm's of travel with a fairly high bandwidth (not sure if as high as 20Hz).

Just wrote this here because I thought it might be similar to the kind of requirements needed for this application in F1.

On another note, would the VLIM really require that high of a bandwidth? What is the time taken from idle to red line in first gear?

The VLIMs need to move very quickly, as faster than the driver can press the throttle. On a semi-related note, what do you suppose are the time scales during combustion? And what time scales can be simulated accurately? ms, micro?

The VLIM's should be rpm based shouldn't they? Throttle position shouldn't affect their position.

[godlameroso]

Hmmmm. As an example, the autopilot system on the S76D and S76C++ (helicopters both of which I am familiar on as well as other Sikorsky products) have 2 types of actuators in the autopilot/stabilisation system. What are termed trim and series actuators. Both of which are purely electric. The series actuators are used for flight stabilisation; rate dampening of flight control movements and providing a large part of keeping the aircraft in the attitude commanded by the pilot or coupled autopilot system. The actuators have a few cm's of travel with a fairly high bandwidth (not sure if as high as 20Hz).

Just wrote this here because I thought it might be similar to the kind of requirements needed for this application in F1.

On another note, would the VLIM really require that high of a bandwidth? What is the time taken from idle to red line in first gear?

The VLIMs need to move very quickly, as faster than the driver can press the throttle. On a semi-related note, what do you suppose are the time scales during combustion? And what time scales can be simulated accurately? ms, micro?

The VLIM's should be rpm based shouldn't they? Throttle position shouldn't affect their position.

Of course, engine vacuum affects the wave harmonics, so VLIMs must take this into account.

[trinidefender]

The VLIMs need to move very quickly, as faster than the driver can press the throttle. On a semi-related note, what do you suppose are the time scales during combustion? And what time scales can be simulated accurately? ms, micro?

The VLIM's should be rpm based shouldn't they? Throttle position shouldn't affect their position.

Of course, engine vacuum affects the wave harmonics, so VLIMs must take this into account.

Fair enough. Yamaha uses electrics for their actuators on the VLIM on their production road motorcycles (at least the ones that I've seen).

[wuzak]

flaps slats and maybe spoilers I wouldn't call control surfaces - actuation stiffness may be required but no bandwidth

at a glance your link seems confirmation to me

DARPA had/has a research program of so-called 'all-electric' flight control actuation
'all-electric' meaning a hydraulic actuator with the hydraulically energisation onboard (the actuator)
so as far as aircraft designers and users are concerned there is no hydraulic connection hence categorisation 'all-electric'
I notice that 'all-electric' seems often to be written all-electric

Well, the Boeing 787 uses both electro-hydraulic and electro-mechanical flight controls.

http://www.moog.com/products/actuation- ... r-787.html

737 flaps control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cld62K4ntbk