2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[Manoah2u]

as my views on the max-ric incident;

i am not actually seeing it as 100% max fault, not that high by any means, really.

Max first of all did not weave or move twice in the braking zone, he positioned his car in the exact right spot to defend that the person behind could not sneak up one on the inside. even if he moved slightly to the right, the simple fact is that if he wouldn't he himself would hit the wall, and above all, dannyric was completely behind him, it's not like leaving room or anything in regards to being 'passed' or alongside a certain amount - dannyric was completely behind him.

danny could have tried the outside, and then the undercut. instead, he did one of his cunning 'deep brake manouvers' but the simple fact is there was no room for that.
sky made some decent notes on that when he was close enough behind max, there was simply no way he could brake enough due to the loss of downforce thanks to the wake of max' car.

either way, danny came in storming and quite frankly, if you look at the replays, danny was the one moving very swiftly left-right-left behind him before being in the inevitable spot.

dannyric took max out, not the other way around.

personally, i think dannyric was too overconfident and a bit too impatient in overtaking max. had he waited one more lap or even 1 or 2 corners more, i'm pretty sure max would have been defenseless.

in any case, max did not put himself in an ideal position fully to the left. he darn well knew that if danny got to the inside, that would have been sure chance he would have been passed.
but either way, he now had a much 'sharper' corner to take and he was close to the wall. would danny have gotten to the right, and lifted a bit more, i'm pretty damn sure there would have been no way max could have steered his car in such a way that danny would not have been able to get in the inside line, and honestly, it would have been a done deal for corner nr2.

so to be pretty honest, i think danny is the one to blame here, not max. doesn't take away that the battle was heated and that max is known for ballsy and risky moves and defensive positioning, AND he darn well knows Danny has some famous late-braking overtakes. but does he then need to simply bend over? hell nah.

he got track position, period.

now apart from that entire discussion;

has it ever been revealed why max actually couldn't continue?
i mean it's not that i'm blind that danny didnt slam in to the back of him, and i can obviously imagine several potential forms of damage done to the car,
probably suspension damage which would result in no drive,

but from the naked eye, i didn't see much destructive damage to the car? the engine did seem to be cut though.

has it ever been officially mentioned what the damage was to max car? gearbox? drive? suspension? engine simply stalled?
danny's car was obviously toast and undrivable but max' car did not really look like that.

as for other stuff of the race;

the loading truck was making me sit in disbelief and cringe, i was surprised it took so long for a driver to comment (lewis).
it was bianchi and devillota like potential. couldn't they simply put another vehicle behind it as a 'road block'?

sad to see bottas' tire go like that, and same for grosjean.

raikkonen's move inside of ocon was clumsy imho but at the same time, ocon really could have left some more room.

great respect for alonso.

what a foolish situation with sirotkin. he should have braked, or the guy to his right should have braked. it was braindead driving.

also, magnificient drive of Sainz, especially during the start. that was some fantastic driving.

exciting race though!

[Zynerji]

Max to STR for Spain is my belief.

Just getting sent down for a single weekend might make him do some needed soul searching, and would be a great opportunity to try out Gasley as a replacement for RIC if chooses to leave.

Too much benefit to overlook, I feel.

[Edax]

so even though i think Max is the next schumi, and i worship him - it was definitely his fault.
However - logically, in terms of career moves - it was the right thing to do.

Coulthard made the point in commentary - every driver will be super weary of trying to overtake Max. he's built up a reputation of never giving up and being ruthless. All the qualities of a future champ.

everyone lost their minds over the RIC overtakes in China....well....he was on much newer tyres. This time he met his match with Max, and they had great battles. RIC gave as good as he got, squeezing Max into T2 in their second battle. They fought hard and fair, it was brilliant.

that second move thing max does normally works, this time he did it to his teammate which should really have been a big nono.....but from his point of view he can never yield to RIC or seen to be. His future is secure with redbull, and will become defacto number one - makes more sense to risk taking out RIC.

but in terms of fault.......it was all max i'm afraid.

- This is where RIC starts to move left, as Max moves right.
https://i.imgur.com/K5bppGXl.jpg

- this is when Max stops moving right - That was his 1 move. If he had just stayed here, RIC would have had enough room to go down the inside. Note how far away Max is from the pit wall and white line.
https://i.imgur.com/kSq95odl.jpg


- and here is where Max finished making his second move..... just before RIC stamps on the brakes. Its all pretty clear cut to me. Right at this point they have just passed the 100m board. There is a chance that RIC missed his brake point completely, but without data i don't know - but bottom line is, Max moved twice. Reminds me of his move on Kimi at Spa a few years ago.
https://i.imgur.com/SCjAGbql.jpg

I think you have to be a bit careful with these onboard pictures esp when judging dimensions. It is a wide angle lens (just check the curvature of the white lines) so the movements and the gap variation look a lot bigger than in reality.

Topside gives a better perspective.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Riccardo, predictable for late breaking dive bomb moves.
Verstappen, predictable for last minute movement under breaking.

I think Riccardo should have been smart enough to know that, he can't do late breaking dive bomb manures on Verstappen, like he does on Kimi and Bottas OR the selling dummy moves of left right left.

Regardless of how slow Verstappen was, he was never going to let anyone pass him.

Last year, Hamilton was intelligent in handling Verstappen. While he let him go in Malaysia, in US he went for the move from outside, fully knowing Verstappen wouldn't let him pass by inside.

[Zynerji]

Riccardo, predictable for late breaking dive bomb moves.
Verstappen, predictable for last minute movement under breaking.

I think Riccardo should have been smart enough to know that, he can't do late breaking dive bomb manures on Verstappen, like he does on Kimi and Bottas OR the selling dummy moves of left right left.

Regardless of how slow Verstappen was, he was never going to let anyone pass him.

Last year, Hamilton was intelligent in handling Verstappen. While he let him go in Malaysia, in US he went for the move from outside, fully knowing Verstappen wouldn't let him pass by inside.

I don't like the fact that you are describing the same thing as if the number 33 was driven by a landmine.

[Moose]

danny could have tried the outside, and then the undercut. instead, he did one of his cunning 'deep brake manouvers' but the simple fact is there was no room for that.
sky made some decent notes on that when he was close enough behind max, there was simply no way he could brake enough due to the loss of downforce thanks to the wake of max' car.

What on earth do you mean "there was no room for that."



Look - there's two entire cars widths right there. That seems like plenty of room to me. At this point Verstappen was alerady moving to the right on the race track, so he'd already made one move. The only way for there to "not be room" is if Verstappen made a second move.

[Shrieker]

The way i see rbs crash: danny ric attempting his trademark 'feint to one side, divebomb the other' move on mad max, with him blatantly violating a clear rule, and yet again getting away with not so much as a slap on the wrist. Danny's only mistake was putting his trust to Max. He should ve been wiser than that. To add, there was still a wee little bit of space on the inside to fit a car, but i guess it was too tight given max was moving over to that side.

On a side note, i was surprised how long the bulls and bottas could drive on supersofts, and in the case of the bulls, i recall thinking that maybe they were waiting to get lucky with an sc, but at the same time an sc requires two cars close together, but they were the closest to likely cause it. Maybe i have the gift of foresight Or not, since their previous battle had already ended with contact...

[ringo]

I also agree that the price to keep RIC did went up today.
You know where you can realize how much at fault RBR was today??

RIC is faster for the whole race. He had already tried several times to pass, VES had blocked him aggressively most of the times. They even banked wheels when he tried to put RIC on the wall. VES is clearly delaying RIC.

VES is coming to the radio and say he has trouble with tyres temp. RIC was closing on him once again,
and you have Horner(i think) on the radio saying to him something like:
"Yea everybody is having those issues, just try to keep the pace, you are doing a solid job" (i mean seriously wtf)
After a few laps RIC managed to make the pass.
After pit stops RIC is behind VES again.

RBR certainly played a part in what happened and it had nothing to do with letting them race.

This year Max cannot handle the more agressive cars. The down force is more binary and less progressive so he has trouble driving it. I guess this where the older more experience drivers have the edge over the play station drivers.
Same is noted with Kimi who has improved from last year. Max is not able to exploit the car because it is less forgiving for driving over the edge.
Daniel has very good car control, so he will appear to be faster in this year's cars. Max need only adjust himself.

[Bisonas]

I also agree that the price to keep RIC did went up today.
You know where you can realize how much at fault RBR was today??

RIC is faster for the whole race. He had already tried several times to pass, VES had blocked him aggressively most of the times. They even banked wheels when he tried to put RIC on the wall. VES is clearly delaying RIC.

VES is coming to the radio and say he has trouble with tyres temp. RIC was closing on him once again,
and you have Horner(i think) on the radio saying to him something like:
"Yea everybody is having those issues, just try to keep the pace, you are doing a solid job" (i mean seriously wtf)
After a few laps RIC managed to make the pass.
After pit stops RIC is behind VES again.

RBR certainly played a part in what happened and it had nothing to do with letting them race.

This year Max cannot handle the more agressive cars. The down force is more binary and less progressive so he has trouble driving it. I guess this where the older more experience drivers have the edge over the play station drivers.
Same is noted with Kimi who has improved from last year. Max is not able to exploit the car because it is less forgiving for driving over the edge.
Daniel has very good car control, so he will appear to be faster in this year's cars. Max need only adjust himself.

Isn't the more aggressive cars he can't handle if you ask me.
It's the more aggressive drivers that he can't handle.
Last year at the second half, he was fighting cars like VET and HAM that had plenty to lose if they had a contact. They had a championship to think about. So they where conceding to VES moves that their nature was, you "concede or we touch because personally i dont care that much if we touch " Most of his attacking moves and more of his defenses where lacking respect and showed that he didn't care about contact or possible dnf. He had nothing to lose.

Well this year at this stage of the champioship , noone is conceding. Drivers are fed up with him. HAM showed it to him more than once, VET also, at this stage they can risk contact also.
So if drivers are not conceding so easy any more on his attacking moves and on his hard defensive moves what is left for VES ?? Contact of course and trips to the gravel.
Until he realize that he has to change the way he approaches wheel to wheel racing.
He is (mentaly) in a bad place atm and he knows it.
No matter if FIA and RBR will protect him and slap his wrist only, RIC not only exposed VES yesterday. But exposed RBR also, because a part of what happen was their fault also.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Are you guys really serious? Or is it just that you don't like a driver and taking the opportunity to go against him. Some of the comments are outright immature, like saying he can't drive this year's car. Seriously?

Hamilton had a rubbish year in 2011, Vettel has had. Multiple such years recently. 2016 was probably worst and last year's Baku. Lots of drivers go through a bit of mental mess and try to overdrive.

He is still the same driver that performed flawlessly in 2016, with a car that he never drove before. He consistently beat Ric in qualifying and clearly, faster driver for the second half last year. To say, he can't drive this car is indeed outright immaturish.

[ferkan]

Max can't handle high DF cars? Doubt it. He still looks like faster driver this year, but he does make alot of mistakes, probably knowing they are close enough that he could perhaps battle Ferrari and Merc by the end of the year so he wants to take every chance he gets to rack as many pts as possible.

In the end, Ric went with very risky pass on a person you do not want to do it. Had he gone inside, Max would have every right to crash into him because no way would Ric, at that speed, be able to break on racing line. He would either push out Max with his divebomb, or there would be a crash. This was bound to happen, as Max is very aggressive and downright dangerous driver, while Ric divebombs and expects everyone to move over (remember ping pong with Vettel).

[johnny vee]

Max to STR for Spain is my belief.

Just getting sent down for a single weekend might make him do some needed soul searching, and would be a great opportunity to try out Gasley as a replacement for RIC if chooses to leave.

Too much benefit to overlook, I feel.

I agree with this, but I know it will not happen.
This moving under braking thing is something that Verstappen has been guilty of for a long time.

2016 - https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/37210411
Max Verstappen will cause a "massive accident sooner or later" if he does not change his driving tactics, Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen says.

2017 the FIA dropped the "Max Verstappen rule" (moving under braking)
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/39362780
A regulation banning a practice known as "moving under braking" was adopted last year after drivers complained about Red Bull's Max Verstappen.
But governing body the FIA has decided a catch-all rule covering potentially dangerous driving is a better way of policing close-racing incidents.
Each will be treated on its merits, said F1 director Charlie Whiting.

[zac510]

I think Riccardo should have been smart enough to know that, he can't do late breaking dive bomb manures on Verstappen, like he does on Kimi and Bottas OR the selling dummy moves of left right left.

I can't purport to know what goes on inside RIC's mind (unlike others) but he didn't throw this move on Verstappen the first few times he tried to overtake. His first few attempts were 'cleaner' overtakes.

[flexcon]

I also agree that the price to keep RIC did went up today.
You know where you can realize how much at fault RBR was today??

RIC is faster for the whole race. He had already tried several times to pass, VES had blocked him aggressively most of the times. They even banked wheels when he tried to put RIC on the wall. VES is clearly delaying RIC.

VES is coming to the radio and say he has trouble with tyres temp. RIC was closing on him once again,
and you have Horner(i think) on the radio saying to him something like:
"Yea everybody is having those issues, just try to keep the pace, you are doing a solid job" (i mean seriously wtf)
After a few laps RIC managed to make the pass.
After pit stops RIC is behind VES again.

RBR certainly played a part in what happened and it had nothing to do with letting them race.

This year Max cannot handle the more agressive cars. The down force is more binary and less progressive so he has trouble driving it. I guess this where the older more experience drivers have the edge over the play station drivers.
Same is noted with Kimi who has improved from last year. Max is not able to exploit the car because it is less forgiving for driving over the edge.
Daniel has very good car control, so he will appear to be faster in this year's cars. Max need only adjust himself.

Isn't the more aggressive cars he can't handle if you ask me.
It's the more aggressive drivers that he can't handle.
Last year at the second half, he was fighting cars like VET and HAM that had plenty to lose if they had a contact. They had a championship to think about. So they where conceding to VES moves that their nature was, you "concede or we touch because personally i dont care that much if we touch " Most of his attacking moves and more of his defenses where lacking respect and showed that he didn't care about contact or possible dnf. He had nothing to lose.

Well this year at this stage of the champioship , noone is conceding. Drivers are fed up with him. HAM showed it to him more than once, VET also, at this stage they can risk contact also.
So if drivers are not conceding so easy any more on his attacking moves and on his hard defensive moves what is left for VES ?? Contact of course and trips to the gravel.
Until he realize that he has to change the way he approaches wheel to wheel racing.
He is (mentaly) in a bad place atm and he knows it.
No matter if FIA and RBR will protect him and slap his wrist only, RIC not only exposed VES yesterday. But exposed RBR also, because a part of what happen was their fault also.

I absolutely agree here.

I really think that wheel banging earlier in the race was already above aggression from Max. Redbull should have allowed Riccardo to pass and revert again later if Ric was just ahead. This principle seems to work to everyones advantage, even the one letting the car through. They too are then not banging wheels and loosing ground to the car they are chasing while busy defending..... against your bloody teammate with more than half the race to go. There is no loss whatsoever in this scenario for any party, except the driver letting the other go. His ego and image is burnt. That would imply though that the driver feels above the team no?

Sundays race was a a crazy result for RedBull. As much as we like team mates wheel to wheel racing, as a team surely it doesn't make sense to allow what happened Sunday and the risks involved to happen over and over again.

From re watching the clip over and over, I have gone from blaming Max 100% back to 70%. Riccardo was going for it, had a serious overspeed advantage and perhaps should have pulled out. BUT, Max moved aggressively with his teammate. His bloody team mate. Whatever about another driver from another team, his team mate. Just doesn't make sense. I love hard racing, but that doesn't make sense.

[jz11]

Are you guys really serious? Or is it just that you don't like a driver and taking the opportunity to go against him. Some of the comments are outright immature, like saying he can't drive this year's car. Seriously?

Hamilton had a rubbish year in 2011, Vettel has had. Multiple such years recently. 2016 was probably worst and last year's Baku. Lots of drivers go through a bit of mental mess and try to overdrive.

He is still the same driver that performed flawlessly in 2016, with a car that he never drove before. He consistently beat Ric in qualifying and clearly, faster driver for the second half last year. To say, he can't drive this car is indeed outright immaturish.

Max obviously can drive the car, but only if he is the only one on the track, when there is fierce competition, he thinks he is the only one that matters, just look at the his defense in this race, he outright tried to push Ric into the wall "by accident" of course, when he banged against him on the exit, where he just wouldn't give up as usual

The fact is, that in Baku this year he was obviously slower, if you deny that, you're blinded by the hype around him, and he doesn't play team game AT ALL, whenever there is battle between him and Ric, Ric is the one that has to give in or else they both crash out, and that is a pretty sh!tty attitude, but the team has a tendency to treat aussies that way, don't they? Because the young gun is where they build the team success around, and Max probably costs the team much less that what would it take to keep Ric, if he would want to stay in the team anyway.

Max is very fast, but he still doesn't learn that he was successful before this year just because the competition was thinking the long game, and wasn't fighting with him at every corner - this is a clear indication of his immaturity.

Besides, Ric is the one capitalizing on the opportunities, and Max totally isn't, he has cost the team a lot of points, just this race, if he wouldn't fight Ric that hard, Ric might have been there on the podium quite near the top, but instead he lost places to both Renaults and would have handed the place to Kimi as well, who was closing in on both of them while they were fighting - that is not what I'd like to see as a team boss at all, I might be ok with that if he was fighting for the championship, but he clearly is not, and he will not become championship material if he keeps acting like this.