2018 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 27-29

[Raleigh]

So, I've watched the crash now a few days later a few times in slowmotion.
- VER moves two times, first to counter the dummy on the outside, then moving to make the inside more difficult.
- In the move to the inside, he leaves just enough space for RIC to go to, from his car to the white line.
- RIC decides not to take that space, chickens out and wants to take the outside again but it too close to VER already

Indeed, like Lauda said, both to blame, but VER a bit more then RIC.

Was watching the race live from Ricciardo's onboard, and the moment Max started to come back left I knew they were going to crash. Think my exact words were s*** and then they crashed about a second later.
- We know what Verstappen was doing with 2 moves, the issue is that's against the rules for good reason.
- A car's width between Max and the wall yes, but not between him and the white line. Plus for all Daniel knew Max was going to keep coming left and put them both in the wall at over 300km/h. Given the options there really wasn't anywhere else Daniel could go.

The only blame you can assign to Ricciardo is that he was racing hard against his own team mate over 4th place

[Shrieker]

Have you actually watched the race?

Yes I have. Apart from a few bits where I went to grab drinks and stuff.

Then I'm very surprised you didn't notice the entire field driving through the pits and didn't notice the commentary stating as such.

I explained this in another post here.

[Fulcrum]

Just out of interest, what do the Verstappen fans want ? A Ricciardo penalty ?
I guess that would be the only way Max could beat Ric in a championship. He's proven that over the last 2 years

OK, ignoring the snide, I'll bite; He hasn't proven that at all, and you know it, or at least Hamilton does and that is a driver you do seem to respect. Verstappen fans would like a mature discussion, without screaming, yelling, using big fat "weaving all over the place" expressions that are simply very overstated. Or at least, this specific fan would like to see that. Especially on this forum. there are so many forums where the other options are abundantly available.

I think that as this was still Verstappen's first lap (out lap was just about completed when the crash happened) on the still relatively cold ultras (Ricc first full lap (when his own ultras were still cold) was also much slower then Max last (in)lap on the worn Supersofts, hence the overcut, Max also posted some blistering fast times in that lap though, so the tire temp was a big factor in the speed the first say 1 2 laps (building it up) and I think Ric (and Max) also knew this (imho). Ric went for the inside line as around the outside had been proven very tough to make happen. Had he not make the overtake happen Max' ultras would have also been warming up by that time and I think Max would then have been able to make a gap to get Ric outside DRS. just like before in the race when the Renaults disappeared max also pulled a gap on Ric (until he got stuck behind Hamilton on the softs, gaining in sector 2 but the Merc still pulling away on the straight). Ric wanted to show Max who is boss and likely this was the last chance.

Max just didn't fall for the dummy (but he wanted to make any actual passing around the outside as hard as possible as well) I think Ric should have seen this coming as well. Not for a reason the stewards (with Connelly included) confirmed both the minor moving (their words, but I guess they are then also "delusional Max fans" or whichever derogatory term is being flung this time) as well as Ric simply being too late to throw a dummy like that.

What Verstappen fans want (would like) is a fair, balanced judgement or even discussion. I know Max is hard, maybe still a bit too hard (the wheelbang moment was his mistake) but at this point in the race (with his ultras warming up) I understand he battled like he did. Earlier on he could have let Ric go, but to be fair, he did also defend him a few times (very hard) but totally fair, it is just that if you then do have a lock up, yes , then it is your mistake, your risk. Ric f.e. also shut the door quite hard at race start in turn 1.

Baku is just a very peculiar track, you already have a big fat tow and then DRS opens as an added bonus, it is just a very big difference (between equally engined cars (or let alone more powerfully engined cars) making it very hard to defend.

And I'm sure the F1 drivers would like a fair and reasonable opportunity to overtake, and yet here we are. Again.

[Shrieker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtV1no8EnoY

I just watched this. As much as I like Kevin, he was being a total d1ck on both occasions. The penalty he received as a result was deserved.

[Phil]

The highway analogy Is not very helpful I think. I usually keep right (that is the norm here in mainland europe) to let faster people by and when I want to overtake a truck I wait for a gap and use my indicator to show other drivers (and ones I possibly missed) my intention. On a race track you race eachother, on a highway you lookout for eachother.

It is, because some people believe it is good/smart racing etiquette to move in front of a car driving at a much faster speed coming from behind. To some extend, yes you are allowed to make your defensive move, but not without taking into account the closing speed and you certainly shouldnt be leaving it late. E.g. the move shouldnt come as a reaction to what the car behind is doing. Usually the inside line is the one beneficial to an overtaker, so most drivers will cover the inside early enough without having to react to anything. If you leave the move late, you are quite frankly risking a collision in that you are moving straight into a path of a much quicker car with little time to react.

The highway example is a simple because most of us experience it on a daily basis. At Baku in this incident, the case is exaggerated even more because there is a much larger speed differential due to tow and DRS which leaves less time to react.

Again, in this very incident, the danger is increased even more so because Max reacted twice, to both moves. If this type of defensive driving is allowed, you can welcome less overtakes and more accidents because then any driver would be free to blocking maneuvers, even hindering cars that are driving a lot faster.

[vanburin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtV1no8EnoY

I just watched this. As much as I like Kevin, he was being a total d1ck on both occasions. The penalty he received as a result was deserved.

Yikes, the Gasly on-board is frightening. Reminds me of the MSC/BAR incident from Hungary of I want to say 2010 if memory serves me correct. Magnussen absolutely deserves the penalty he was given. He had accumulated 8 penalty points over a 12 month period, now dropped down to 7 as one point came off his books as of yesterday.

[Sieper]

The highway analogy Is not very helpful I think. I usually keep right (that is the norm here in mainland europe) to let faster people by and when I want to overtake a truck I wait for a gap and use my indicator to show other drivers (and ones I possibly missed) my intention. On a race track you race eachother, on a highway you lookout for eachother.

It is, because some people believe it is good/smart racing etiquette to move in front of a car driving at a much faster speed coming from behind. To some extend, yes you are allowed to make your defensive move, but not without taking into account the closing speed and you certainly shouldnt be leaving it late. E.g. the move shouldnt come as a reaction to what the car behind is doing. Usually the inside line is the one beneficial to an overtaker, so most drivers will cover the inside early enough without having to react to anything. If you leave the move late, you are quite frankly risking a collision in that you are moving straight into a path of a much quicker car with little time to react.

The highway example is a simple because most of us experience it on a daily basis. At Baku in this incident, the case is exaggerated even more because there is a much larger speed differential due to tow and DRS which leaves less time to react.

Again, in this very incident, the danger is increased even more so because Max reacted twice, to both moves. If this type of defensive driving is allowed, you can welcome less overtakes and more accidents because then any driver would be free to blocking maneuvers, even hindering cars that are driving a lot faster.

Like Magnussen on Gasly? Which is something you don't see Max do, like said, I feel he is hard but fair (and still has learning to do as well). In Bahrein on the straight Max also passed Hamilton who made a two fold step outward just as well there (he went, and then went a bit further) but Max still went around. I don't remember you saying how dangerous that was. And that is a little bit the problem we will always have on a forum, we all have our driver preferences and with that in eye our perception of each duel/situation etc. is different. On this very page we have terms like "WEAVING ALL OVER THE PLACE" whilst in fact (have a look at the actual situation from all the different camera views) the double move was there but the actual steering input is really very minor (like the stewards also literally concluded).

maybe Max should concede earlier, even in this race there were 2 moments that in hindsight I feel he could have done that (sainz and the front wheel lock up) but I also explained (the purples cold) in an earlier reaction why I think this was not the point where he needed to do that. Is Max making it too difficult to pass, yes maybe, maybe that is a place where he needs to develop. But that is real easy to say in hindsight, the other duels (earlier with Ric) except for the moment where he then did lock up were all good racing.

[Restomaniac]

Yes I have. Apart from a few bits where I went to grab drinks and stuff.

Then I'm very surprised you didn't notice the entire field driving through the pits and didn't notice the commentary stating as such.

I explained this in another post here.

Maybe then if I may politely suggest. In future it maybe more prudent to make sure you haven't missed something before jumping all over Ferrari for them doing what was pretty much exactly the right thing to do bearing in mind you have admitted that you had left the coverage at that point?

In fact if they HADN'T have done so they would have been down right idiotic TBH.

[Restomaniac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtV1no8EnoY

I just watched this. As much as I like Kevin, he was being a total d1ck on both occasions. The penalty he received as a result was deserved.

Yikes, the Gasly on-board is frightening. Reminds me of the MSC/BAR incident from Hungary of I want to say 2010 if memory serves me correct. Magnussen absolutely deserves the penalty he was given. He had accumulated 8 penalty points over a 12 month period, now dropped down to 7 as one point came off his books as of yesterday.

Indeed. I can't believe he offered Gasly the choices of 'go in the wall or back out' at around 150MPH.
Pierre must have figuratively pooped himself.

[George-Jung]

Think about what you are suggesting here. A car being allowed to move directly into the path of a car moving 20-30kmh faster? Yes, of course, that is good racing etiquette right there.

I hope you're not saying you need to be a Gentleman on track?
Because there is no such thing; you have two kind of racers:

1. Winners
2. Losers

Thats just about it imho.

[dans79]

Hmm, I see that some people are still completely incapable of understanding the rules, So here is what the stewards said, and guess what, it agrees what almost everybody but die-hard fanboys have been saying since the accident.

file:///C:/Users/dsherman/Downloads/2018_azerbaijan_grand_prix_2018_offence_-_car_33_collision_with_car_3_-_doc_46_1.pdf

The Stewards heard from Daniel Ricciardo, the driver of car 3, Max Verstappen, the
driver of car 33 and the team representative.
Both drivers contributed to the collision.  The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of
which were relatively minor.
The driver of car 3 admitted he left his move to overtake on the left, too late.
It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by
car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident.
Both drivers expressed regret about their respective contributions to the incident,
during the Stewards’ hearing.

What is complete and utter BS, is that the FIA has no bite.

If A driver breaks the rules you penalize them period, regardless if they DNF, or express regret. Instead all we ever get from the FIA is namby pamby garbage.

[TAG]

Think about what you are suggesting here. A car being allowed to move directly into the path of a car moving 20-30kmh faster? Yes, of course, that is good racing etiquette right there.

I hope you're not saying you need to be a Gentleman on track?
Because there is no such thing; you have two kind of racers:

1. Winners
2. Losers

Thats just about it imho.

3. Crashers

[Sieper]

Those are listed under Subcategory 2 TAG.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Those are listed under Subcategory 2 TAG.

Stastically, they belong to both.

Someone was famously called Crash Kid, not long ago, who often continues to show that once in a while. Baku last year springs to mind.

[Sieper]

That is true actually Sometimes you have to show that you are willing to be a cat 3 driver to be in either cat 1 or 2!