2018 French Grand Prix, Le Castellet, June 22-24

[rscsr]

Grosjean seriously needs to sit out a race, either because his team makes him or the FIA does. from the on boards you can see he literally just side swipes Ocon at the start, like he thought he could bully him out of the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stslHU6Euv0

Rough start for Ocon. Bumped by Grosjean, taken out by Gasly. Either a big lack of situational awareness, or just malice, on Grosjean's part. Odd.

the Gasly crash was certainly Ocon's fault.

[roon]

Grosjean seriously needs to sit out a race, either because his team makes him or the FIA does. from the on boards you can see he literally just side swipes Ocon at the start, like he thought he could bully him out of the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stslHU6Euv0

Rough start for Ocon. Bumped by Grosjean, taken out by Gasly. Either a big lack of situational awareness, or just malice, on Grosjean's part. Odd.

the Gasly crash was certainly Ocon's fault.

As in, he shouldn't have cut over as much as he did? Looked like Ocon was following a good line, which doesn't always work in traffic. I guess Gasly lost the back end trying to avoid him.

[drunkf1fan]

Rough start for Ocon. Bumped by Grosjean, taken out by Gasly. Either a big lack of situational awareness, or just malice, on Grosjean's part. Odd.

the Gasly crash was certainly Ocon's fault.

As in, he shouldn't have cut over as much as he did? Looked like Ocon was following a good line, which doesn't always work in traffic. I guess Gasly lost the back end trying to avoid him.

Its' the start of a race, there are people alongside going into the first few corners if the track isn't the type to be single file into the very first corner and here with contacts and collisions everyone was even more bunched up.

You can't just be on the very outside and cut over to the apex. I've been incredibly critical of Massa for doing this throughout his career. He flipped his own car over in Germany by deciding that despite being on the outside line screw everyone he wanted the apex, cut across found a car there and caused a collision. As always with Massa he blamed the other driver. What's great from that video for that particular crash is after Massa/Magnussen hit about 4 other pairs of drivers go through that corner side by side, not one other driver cut from the outside line to the apex because not one other driver was stupid enough to do so.

He was on the outside line, way way outside as it goes, he had cars very close on the inside, most other drivers actually stuck roughly to their lines in that corner because they are aware that switching lines in such situations usually lead to contacts.

Ocon tried to blame Grosjean for the car damage when talking about the Gasly crash. To me it suggests Ocon saw it, knew it was entirely his fault but tried to pass it off as car damage caused him to pull to the right.

Grosjean is a complete idiot and hit Ocon for no reason at all, Ocon was a complete idiot in changing lines like that. Later in the race when you know who is around you and if a car is close do what you want, first lap with cars going through alongside each other (and the cars directly ahead did so also so it's clear this is possible), hell no. Vettel, honestly, complete idiot. He messed up the first corner but with a damaged car and far less control than usual he went back onto the track and caused a second collision with Grosjean. It should be plainly clear to him that he had a decent amount of damage and would have front wing damage and not the best ability to turn into a corner so he should have been slow and in all honest using the run off to stay out of the way.

So much stupidity in the first lap.

[Mamba]

Vettel utterly lacks race craft, otherwise he would have pulled out of the ever shrinking space long before the corner. IMHO, he should have gotten a drive through - a guaranteed loss of 15 seconds in the least.

Your penalty is way to harsh for a first corner crash. He locked up thats that. If you look at the start, he suddenly falls back as they approach the corner, Bottas who was alongside suddenly jumps ahead. Remember the aero impact as the car lost a lot of its downforce and braking ability behind Hamilton which lead to the lock up and eventual collusion. Yes, perhaps Vettel could and should have braked even earlier - but we can only say that with hindsight can't we? We all like (this is the key word here) to think that we in the same situation (myself very much included here) could have avoided such an accident. Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. Stating he lacks race craft when he actually did drop out rather than force it through is rather harsh.

[turbof1]

Seeing the race again and spend time reviewing the start, I'm 100% sure that Bottas and Hamilton talked about how they'd counter the start with Vettel on the softer compound sure to attack the way he did. Pretty brilliant actually.

Exactly, Lewis deliberately lifted off very early to allow Bottas draw alongside to first box Vettel in, then crowd him out.

After the race in Canada, Lewis actually regretted not helping Bottas stop Vettel jumping him. So its highly likely that they drew up a plan, especially as Vettel was on the grippier tyre which would theoretically have given him a car lengths advantage by the first corner.

Vettel utterly lacks race craft, otherwise he would have pulled out of the ever shrinking space long before the corner. IMHO, he should have gotten a drive through - a guaranteed loss of 15 seconds in the least.

To be fair, it was solid team work from Bottas and Hamilton. The dynamic between those 2 can be described as excellent. It's often underestimated how much trust that asks given they are technically still eachothers biggest rivals (your teammate in the same car is always going to be the reference point). A shame Bottas had to pay the price for it.

I can understand why Vettel made the mistake, clearly he was caught off guard by it. I'm not going to overly criticize him for a simple lockup with regrettably big consequences. I did expect him to get away with it without a penalty since it is a first corner incident, although I personally felt he should have been given a bigger penalty than just those 5s. He did drive very well afterwards, limiting the damage.

[santos]

Seeing the race again and spend time reviewing the start, I'm 100% sure that Bottas and Hamilton talked about how they'd counter the start with Vettel on the softer compound sure to attack the way he did. Pretty brilliant actually.

Exactly, Lewis deliberately lifted off very early to allow Bottas draw alongside to first box Vettel in, then crowd him out.

After the race in Canada, Lewis actually regretted not helping Bottas stop Vettel jumping him. So its highly likely that they drew up a plan, especially as Vettel was on the grippier tyre which would theoretically have given him a car lengths advantage by the first corner.

Vettel utterly lacks race craft, otherwise he would have pulled out of the ever shrinking space long before the corner. IMHO, he should have gotten a drive through - a guaranteed loss of 15 seconds in the least.

Tell me wich other driver had that penalty for the same incident. Or it should be harsh because it was Vettel?

[Sieper]

It was judged a racing incicent (Ocon on Gasly) but to me Ocon slammed that door close in an all to enthusiastic fashion. Have you seen the Gasly onboard?

@foxmulder, The plan was to box Vettel in should he have a good start (and went for the inside) so that Bottas could remain in front even in such an event. I am quite sure the plan was not have Vettel crash into Bottas (although I can imagine Hamilton not being too sad about it) and Vettel simply made a mistake (by misjudging his braking downforce). He was forced to back out and should have done that.

[Nuvolari]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

[Juzh]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty

Also in baku.

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Pretty much.

[RZS10]

How is Gasly going into a corner too quickly on a bad line into a disappearing gap Ocon's fault?



He was too far behind to claim the inside line of that corner, it's more than a car's length when Ocon starts turning in and he probably would have collected him had Ocon left one car's width on the inside ...

[turbof1]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Or maybe we should stop insinuating people disrespect Vettel?

I think the issue here clearly is inconstency regarding penalties. Infact, the most consistent thing to do would have been not to penalize Vettel (as it should be categorized as a first corner incident), but that would not exactly have been fair either. I personally felt the penalty should have been bigger because he did ruin somebody else his race. But I can accept the given penalty, probably like others do.

Btw, may I please ask some common sense regarding the Bottas 2017 Spanish GP incident? Bottas did not lock up, did not push anyone off the track and did not make a mistake. He kept completely to the inside. Recheck the footage:


He was with half the car on the kerbstones. He did everything to avoid contact. Vettel on the other hand locked up and hit somebody because of that. Locking up is not the most offensive mistake you can make of course, but it is Vettel's mistake. Far from "the exact same mistake".

[Juzh]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Or maybe we should stop insinuating people disrespect Vettel?

I think the issue here clearly is inconstency regarding penalties. Infact, the most consistent thing to do would have been not to penalize Vettel (as it should be categorized as a first corner incident), but that would not exactly have been fair either. I personally felt the penalty should have been bigger because he did ruin somebody else his race. But I can accept the given penalty, probably like others do.

Btw, may I please ask some common sense regarding the Bottas 2017 Spanish GP incident? Bottas did not lock up, did not push anyone off the track and did not make a mistake. He kept completely to the inside. Recheck the footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2BUVrDNTI

He was with half the car on the kerbstones. He did everything to avoid contact. Vettel on the other hand locked up and hit somebody because of that. Locking up is not the most offensive mistake you can make of course, but it is Vettel's mistake. Far from "the exact same mistake".

How do you explain this one then? Clear understeers over the kerb into raikkonen. No penalty. This wasn't even the first corner.

[turbof1]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Or maybe we should stop insinuating people disrespect Vettel?

I think the issue here clearly is inconstency regarding penalties. Infact, the most consistent thing to do would have been not to penalize Vettel (as it should be categorized as a first corner incident), but that would not exactly have been fair either. I personally felt the penalty should have been bigger because he did ruin somebody else his race. But I can accept the given penalty, probably like others do.

Btw, may I please ask some common sense regarding the Bottas 2017 Spanish GP incident? Bottas did not lock up, did not push anyone off the track and did not make a mistake. He kept completely to the inside. Recheck the footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2BUVrDNTI

He was with half the car on the kerbstones. He did everything to avoid contact. Vettel on the other hand locked up and hit somebody because of that. Locking up is not the most offensive mistake you can make of course, but it is Vettel's mistake. Far from "the exact same mistake".

How do you explain this one then? Clear understeers over the kerb into raikkonen. No penalty. This wasn't even the first corner.
https://youtu.be/AIK5EMctDLE?t=23s

As a clear mistake from Bottas? He should have been penalized for that, no question. I'm not out to get Bottas (or any driver) free from all the incidents he was involved in, just in the cases he actually did nothing wrong. Baku 2017 was a clear error, Barcelona 2017 was absolutely no error. Vettel Paul Ricard 2018 was a clear error. I think there's little to debate in any of that really.

[RZS10]

I think it usually comes down to not having enough possibilities to penalize and not having any situation specific penalties.

Here for example having Vettel and Bottas swap places after the SC restart would have been a fairer and far more fitting penalty than one of those non-penalties (+5s), that way you'd have the drivers back in their initial order before the incident.

Although this still wouldn't account for the damage Vettel caused and Bottas would have been overtaken eventually.

[santos]

I think it usually comes down to not having enough possibilities to penalize and not having any situation specific penalties.

Here for example having Vettel and Bottas swap places after the SC restart would have been a fairer and far more fitting penalty than one of those non-penalties (+5s), that way you'd have the drivers back in their initial order before the incident.

Although this still wouldn't account for the damage Vettel caused and Bottas would have been overtaken eventually.

So if Bottas had retired, Vettel would have black flag? I find a bit strange all this buzz around the crash. But i didn't hear so much when Bottas ruined the race of Kimi last year in Baku. There's always more angry people when it's a Ferrari driver, no?