2018 French Grand Prix, Le Castellet, June 22-24

[RZS10]

Why does everyone go back to "BUT WHAT ABOUT BOTTAS" - He also deserved a penalty.

"situation specific penalties" is the key phrase - if the other driver is out the situation changes, obviously.

[drunkf1fan]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Or maybe we should stop insinuating people disrespect Vettel?

I think the issue here clearly is inconstency regarding penalties. Infact, the most consistent thing to do would have been not to penalize Vettel (as it should be categorized as a first corner incident), but that would not exactly have been fair either. I personally felt the penalty should have been bigger because he did ruin somebody else his race. But I can accept the given penalty, probably like others do.

Btw, may I please ask some common sense regarding the Bottas 2017 Spanish GP incident? Bottas did not lock up, did not push anyone off the track and did not make a mistake. He kept completely to the inside. Recheck the footage:

He was with half the car on the kerbstones. He did everything to avoid contact. Vettel on the other hand locked up and hit somebody because of that. Locking up is not the most offensive mistake you can make of course, but it is Vettel's mistake. Far from "the exact same mistake".

I think you failed to make something clear, Bottas wasn't only not at fault. Kimi with a driver alongside him on the inside cut to the apex. This was 100% Kimi's fault and actually Kimi should have been penalised for it.

It's pretty much what I bashed Massa for, at least Massa probably didn't see Magnussen in Germany (though he's done it knowing a car is on his inside a ridiculous number of times in his career), but he should have expected someone behind Bottas and can't just assume track is empty at the start and move over without knowing.


Kimi knows for 100% certain there is a car alongside on the inside, every rule states if someone is on the inside you have to leave space at the apex, Kimi seeing Bottas just decided the apex was his.

Honestly Kimi and Vettel get into a completely absurd number of T1 incidents in the last few years and fairly major ones and they keep getting little to no punishment for --- up other drivers races that they keep behaving the same way. Even the fact that Kimi and Vettel have got in each others way and had contact, some race ending or race ruining contact, between each other that Ferrari themselves should have long since stepped in and said hey idiots, hows about taking T1 a little easier.

[turbof1]

Bottas did the exact mistake in last year's Spanish GP, and that was a race ending move for TWO drivers. No penalty.

By contrast Vettel gets a 5 sec penalty here and people are calling for a harsher penalty? Gosh, how desperate are some people!

I wonder if the same people were also disgusted with the fact that last year Bottas did not get a penalty?

Or is it because this is Vettel and Ferrari, which means they are fair game.

Or maybe we should stop insinuating people disrespect Vettel?

I think the issue here clearly is inconstency regarding penalties. Infact, the most consistent thing to do would have been not to penalize Vettel (as it should be categorized as a first corner incident), but that would not exactly have been fair either. I personally felt the penalty should have been bigger because he did ruin somebody else his race. But I can accept the given penalty, probably like others do.

Btw, may I please ask some common sense regarding the Bottas 2017 Spanish GP incident? Bottas did not lock up, did not push anyone off the track and did not make a mistake. He kept completely to the inside. Recheck the footage:

He was with half the car on the kerbstones. He did everything to avoid contact. Vettel on the other hand locked up and hit somebody because of that. Locking up is not the most offensive mistake you can make of course, but it is Vettel's mistake. Far from "the exact same mistake".

I think you failed to make something clear, Bottas wasn't only not at fault. Kimi with a driver alongside him on the inside cut to the apex. This was 100% Kimi's fault and actually Kimi should have been penalised for it.

It's pretty much what I bashed Massa for, at least Massa probably didn't see Magnussen in Germany (though he's done it knowing a car is on his inside a ridiculous number of times in his career), but he should have expected someone behind Bottas and can't just assume track is empty at the start and move over without knowing.


Kimi knows for 100% certain there is a car alongside on the inside, every rule states if someone is on the inside you have to leave space at the apex, Kimi seeing Bottas just decided the apex was his.

Honestly Kimi and Vettel get into a completely absurd number of T1 incidents in the last few years and fairly major ones and they keep getting little to no punishment for --- up other drivers races that they keep behaving the same way. Even the fact that Kimi and Vettel have got in each others way and had contact, some race ending or race ruining contact, between each other that Ferrari themselves should have long since stepped in and said hey idiots, hows about taking T1 a little easier.

No, I left Kimi out of this story on purpose. I just wanted to get the point across what Bottas was involved in and Vettel was involved, was not the same. We don't need unnecessary finger pointing to other races.

[dans79]

I think it usually comes down to not having enough possibilities to penalize and not having any situation specific penalties.

Here for example having Vettel and Bottas swap places after the SC restart would have been a fairer and far more fitting penalty than one of those non-penalties (+5s), that way you'd have the drivers back in their initial order before the incident.

Although this still wouldn't account for the damage Vettel caused and Bottas would have been overtaken eventually.

They have plenty of options as I showed earlier in the thread, the issue is the stewards are cowards and never apply the rules, for fear of spoiling the spectacle for the average fan, or as has been shown in this very thread the o so common fanboy.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... lties.html

• 5 second time penalty
• 10 second time penalty
• drive through penalty
• 5 second stop and go penalty
• 10 second stop and go penalty

This is the important bit.

In extreme cases stewards may choose to enforce tougher penalties. They can drop a driver any number of grid positions at the next Grand Prix; impose time penalties; reprimand a driver; exclude a driver from the results; or suspend a driver from the next race.

In short the Stewards have almost absolute power, but they act like scared children. Personally I find it pathetic, and they are getting worse every year.

[turbof1]

I don't think it's an issue of being scared, but stewards having to weight earlier order to be more lenient for first corner incidents and punishing obvious errors.

Maybe there is a sense of injustice because Bottas ended up far behind Vettel. But that's very difficult to give a correct punishment for. and the question always remains: do we need to punish based on the error, or do we need to punish for the consequences? Maybe something inbetween? Sometimes small mistakes have huge consequences. If he locked up any other lap he would just go a bit wide in the corner without hitting anybody.

I think it's better to let this rest. Vettel made a mistake. Personally I felt he deserved a slightly harsher punishment, but only slightly. One should also not forget he lucked out due the safety car. If the safety car did not made the grid bunch up again, he would not have finished 5th. And then people would be able to say "he ruined his race with it, sounds like decent punishment already". You can't punish someone for luck.

Let's leave it at that. It proved to be costly anyhow for Vettel. We should move on.

[foxmulder_ms]

How is Gasly going into a corner too quickly on a bad line into a disappearing gap Ocon's fault?

https://i.imgur.com/YJf9AEz.png

He was too far behind to claim the inside line of that corner, it's more than a car's length when Ocon starts turning in and he probably would have collected him had Ocon left one car's width on the inside ...

I am sorry that is firmly Ocon's fault. He saw Gasly late or maybe never saw him but he was very aggressive on closing into the turn. That is not "natural" racing line. My view is that Ocon saw him too late and suddenly decided to cover him. He deserves a penalty IMHO.

[Big Tea]

I think it usually comes down to not having enough possibilities to penalize and not having any situation specific penalties.

Here for example having Vettel and Bottas swap places after the SC restart would have been a fairer and far more fitting penalty than one of those non-penalties (+5s), that way you'd have the drivers back in their initial order before the incident.

Although this still wouldn't account for the damage Vettel caused and Bottas would have been overtaken eventually.

They have plenty of options as I showed earlier in the thread, the issue is the stewards are cowards and never apply the rules, for fear of spoiling the spectacle for the average fan, or as has been shown in this very thread the o so common fanboy.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... lties.html

• 5 second time penalty
• 10 second time penalty
• drive through penalty
• 5 second stop and go penalty
• 10 second stop and go penalty

This is the important bit.

In extreme cases stewards may choose to enforce tougher penalties. They can drop a driver any number of grid positions at the next Grand Prix; impose time penalties; reprimand a driver; exclude a driver from the results; or suspend a driver from the next race.

In short the Stewards have almost absolute power, but they act like scared children. Personally I find it pathetic, and they are getting worse every year.

They are probably all mindful of setting precedent. Once a draconian judgment is passed it will become the yardstick not only for that offense, but for lesser offenses, which ofcourse will have to be proportionately lower (likewise higher)

Anything other than the normal range penalty would not just be judgment on this event but any likewise for several years to come.

[dans79]

Let's leave it at that. It proved to be costly anyhow for Vettel. We should move on.

To me, this isn't about Vettel, or even this specific incident. Back in the early 2010's when they handed out drive throughs for everything was definitely dumb. Now that they can issue lesser time penalties that's almost always what they give out. In my opinion they have shown a trend lately (last several year), of giving out the smallest penalties possible.

Look at what Grosjean did to Ocon. He got a 5 second penalty for almost the exact same thing that garnered him a race ban in 2012. The only difference was that in 2012 his actions created a huge accident.


As I posted earlier, penalties should be more like this.

They are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, and the FIA is supposedly all about safety. Thus in my opinion a free pass or a decrease in penalty because it's a given corner or lap is hypocritical at best.

IMO, penalties should work more like this.

• when none of the drivers involved can be blamed, or they are equally to blame, it should be deemed a racing incident.
• If you gained an advantage by leaving the track limits, forcing someone off the track, spinning them out etc then you should be given a 5 or 10 second time penalty.
• If you are deemed at fault for an incident that requires another car to pit because of significant damage, then you should get a drive though or 5 or 10 second stop go penalty.
• If you are deemed to have done something egregious (think spa 2012), then you should be black flagged, or receive a race ban.

[dans79]

I am sorry that is firmly Ocon's fault. He saw Gasly late or maybe never saw him but he was very aggressive on closing into the turn. That is not "natural" racing line. My view is that Ocon saw him too late and suddenly decided to cover him. He deserves a penalty IMHO.

Watch the on-boards from Gasly's car, Ocon had either a broken front wing, a cut right front, or suspension damage as his right front was sparking all over the place. I don't think he was covering Gasly, I think he was just trying to get back to the pits as fast as he could.

[GrandAxe]

Vettel utterly lacks race craft, otherwise he would have pulled out of the ever shrinking space long before the corner. IMHO, he should have gotten a drive through - a guaranteed loss of 15 seconds in the least.

Your penalty is way to harsh for a first corner crash. He locked up thats that. If you look at the start, he suddenly falls back as they approach the corner, Bottas who was alongside suddenly jumps ahead. Remember the aero impact as the car lost a lot of its downforce and braking ability behind Hamilton which lead to the lock up and eventual collusion. Yes, perhaps Vettel could and should have braked even earlier - but we can only say that with hindsight can't we? We all like (this is the key word here) to think that we in the same situation (myself very much included here) could have avoided such an accident. Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. Stating he lacks race craft when he actually did drop out rather than force it through is rather harsh.

Sorry, but hindsight doesn't fit here. Lewis in the lead car saw what was about to happen and in his words he took evasive action by "going deep into the corner", because he thought he too was going to be collected by Vettel (or the crash he was about to cause).
If Lewis could see it coming, why couldn't Vettel who was the pilot of the vehicle concerned?

The other thing is that, even if Vettels out of control car had somehow missed Bottas, then with respect to Max and Ricciardo, he would have been very compromised into turn 2 and maybe 3 and come out 4th or 5th. So, where was he going?

The punishment I suggested is harsh, but Vettel has made starting and restarting crashes something of a habit. That must be curtailed.
Secondly, Vettel came out quite far ahead of Bottas after their visit to the pits for repairs; effectively gaining an overtake through bad behaviour. That is unfair and unacceptable.

[roon]

How is Gasly going into a corner too quickly on a bad line into a disappearing gap Ocon's fault?

https://i.imgur.com/YJf9AEz.png

He was too far behind to claim the inside line of that corner, it's more than a car's length when Ocon starts turning in and he probably would have collected him had Ocon left one car's width on the inside ...

I was thinking that at first, but there could have been other cars to Gasly's left, and behind him. At least half the grid is on a bad line at the start.

[Andres125sx]

Wanna know just how bitter Alonso is?

(team radio just after spin)
https://streamable.com/cvkeq

Flat out wishing damage on opponent's car, after being utterly mugged round the outside and cought sleeping. Hopefully mclaren is bad enough the entire year so he packs up his things and leaves for indycar.

(read with Star Wars Emperor voice)

The HATE is strong with you

[komninosm]

Hmm... I thought Vettel might have got a harsher penalty than 5s, but clearly my opinion is in the minority. How he managed to get driver of the day is beyond me.

The way he got off from Baku last year!

Max got 10 seconds in China, and did no damage to the other car.

Why did Max get 10 seconds in China then?

Vettel penalty was weak, drive through may have been better (maybe not though). But it wasn't that bad. It was a turn 1 incident (though someone who compared it with Max forcing Ricciardo to crash on him is wrong, that was totally different because of two moves while breaking too). And Vettel could have crashed on Hamilton, but instead chose to avoid him and crashed on Bottas. He did the right thing, compared to Baku last year...
The real problem is he got no black flag in Baku last year. FIARRARI as usual is the problem.

[komninosm]

Oh please. 5 second penalty was enough

5 seconds was not enough as he took out a competitor and got away with it and ended infront of him.

What penalty Bottas got last year at Baku for instance? Zilch....

Oh please, Kimi should have taken a wider turn, he pushed Bottas into the curb. He was only in half in front (and that cause of late breaking). It's a totally different issue to Vettel blocking wheels and crashing into Bottas now.
Ferrari bias is showing.

[komninosm]

Seeing the race again and spend time reviewing the start, I'm 100% sure that Bottas and Hamilton talked about how they'd counter the start with Vettel on the softer compound sure to attack the way he did. Pretty brilliant actually.

Exactly, Lewis deliberately lifted off very early to allow Bottas draw alongside to first box Vettel in, then crowd him out.

After the race in Canada, Lewis actually regretted not helping Bottas stop Vettel jumping him. So its highly likely that they drew up a plan, especially as Vettel was on the grippier tyre which would theoretically have given him a car lengths advantage by the first corner.

Vettel utterly lacks race craft, otherwise he would have pulled out of the ever shrinking space long before the corner. IMHO, he should have gotten a drive through - a guaranteed loss of 15 seconds in the least.

Did you see that Vettel hit ANOTHER car afterwards too? In the next big turn. It was a miracle the other car didn't also lose a tire.
And then he hit Alonso.
Vettel should not be driver of the day.
He should have gotten bigger penalties and more of them.
FIARRARI strikes again.