Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Anybody can say what he wants, but is clear to anyone Alonso retire is not good for F1. Next year is gonna be battle again between vettel and Hamilton only; maybe Varstappen will deliver if Honda is ok. We will mii Ricciardo up front. Alonso in a better car would have given lot more interest in f1 for last 4-5 years; for the future also.
Me for example: I like Riciardo, Alonso and a little bit Lewis. Next year maybe i won't watch GPs, even because in Italy you have to pay
Strategic mistakes were made – I’m talking here about errors of vision – very serious ones. And of course they haven’t always taken the best decisions regarding people.
“I’ll give you an example. In 2008 we in the racing department put in a request to construct a new wind tunnel. We considered it essential to remain competitive. We were told that this was not the case and that there was no need.
“In Ferrari all the decisions, on strategy and people, have always been taken by the president, Montezenolo. To be fair, he took them when Ferrari was winning everything and he also took them when Ferrari stopped winning.”
The tunnel at Maranello was converted from 50% scale to 60% scale, but it suffered from problems with calibration and Ferrari lost a lot of time as a result. They were forced to use Toyota’s tunnel in Cologne while the issues were resolved.
Ferrari is currently constructing a huge new complex in Maranello to house its race team, known as Gestione Sportiva (2014).
And what that means is that the organisation veers off to look at very short-term things. When I joined in 2010, there were quite a lot of things that were eight to 10 years out of date which we needed to fix. And these weren't quick fixes: it took just six months to work out what was wrong with the wind tunnel, and then another 18 months to fix it."
Alonso hasn't had the best budget/facilities since 2007, which maybe not coincidentally was the last time he had the quickest car.
Also in the same Costa piece:
“I consider Fernando a true great when he is in the car, driving. Out of the car, I was never able to understand him; to me he is an indecipherable character, an enigma.”
Strategic mistakes were made – I’m talking here about errors of vision – very serious ones. And of course they haven’t always taken the best decisions regarding people.
“I’ll give you an example. In 2008 we in the racing department put in a request to construct a new wind tunnel. We considered it essential to remain competitive. We were told that this was not the case and that there was no need.
“In Ferrari all the decisions, on strategy and people, have always been taken by the president, Montezenolo. To be fair, he took them when Ferrari was winning everything and he also took them when Ferrari stopped winning.”
The tunnel at Maranello was converted from 50% scale to 60% scale, but it suffered from problems with calibration and Ferrari lost a lot of time as a result. They were forced to use Toyota’s tunnel in Cologne while the issues were resolved.
Ferrari is currently constructing a huge new complex in Maranello to house its race team, known as Gestione Sportiva (2014).
And what that means is that the organisation veers off to look at very short-term things. When I joined in 2010, there were quite a lot of things that were eight to 10 years out of date which we needed to fix. And these weren't quick fixes: it took just six months to work out what was wrong with the wind tunnel, and then another 18 months to fix it."
Alonso hasn't had the best budget/facilities since 2007, which maybe not coincidentally was the last time he had the quickest car.
Also in the same Costa piece:
“I consider Fernando a true great when he is in the car, driving. Out of the car, I was never able to understand him; to me he is an indecipherable character, an enigma.”
I think he is a bit of an enigma for many, it sounds a fair comment to me.
Anybody can say what he wants, but is clear to anyone Alonso retire is not good for F1. Next year is gonna be battle again between vettel and Hamilton only; maybe Varstappen will deliver if Honda is ok. We will mii Ricciardo up front. Alonso in a better car would have given lot more interest in f1 for last 4-5 years; for the future also.
Me for example: I like Riciardo, Alonso and a little bit Lewis. Next year maybe i won't watch GPs, even because in Italy you have to pay
Sadly, I don't think many would even notice that he is gone. The best he has been contending for has been the mid-midfield positions. The only really memorable Alonso moments in the past few years have been his highly frustrating radio messages.
I wish him well where ever his road may take him. There's much to argue about his persona, but the performance and his competitiveness he brings to any event he contents in, are undisputed. Performance wise, one of the greatest within his generation, no doubt about it.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Anybody can say what he wants, but is clear to anyone Alonso retire is not good for F1. Next year is gonna be battle again between vettel and Hamilton only; maybe Varstappen will deliver if Honda is ok. We will mii Ricciardo up front. Alonso in a better car would have given lot more interest in f1 for last 4-5 years; for the future also.
Me for example: I like Riciardo, Alonso and a little bit Lewis. Next year maybe i won't watch GPs, even because in Italy you have to pay
Sadly, I don't think many would even notice that he is gone. The best he has been contending for has been the mid-midfield positions. The only really memorable Alonso moments in the past few years have been his highly frustrating radio messages.
I wish him well where ever his road may take him. There's much to argue about his persona, but the performance and his competitiveness he brings to any event he contents in, are undisputed. Performance wise, one of the greatest within his generation, no doubt about it.
My lasting memory of him will sadly be in a deck chair.
Unfortunate when I consider all he did, but it is what it is.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
Pat Fry was shocked at the level of infrastructure/facilities at Maranello when he joined compared to McLaren.
And not for the first time. I'd had to go scan thru my books to find the exact years, but a long time back when the more "modern" team were working in pristine facilities there was a driver, not sure who, like I say I'd have to go back and study, but said driver was shocked by the conditions under which the cars and particularly the engines were assembled. It was like a step back to Tyrrell's woodshed times. The old man never wanted to spend the money to upgrade as I remember it.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Anybody can say what he wants, but is clear to anyone Alonso retire is not good for F1. Next year is gonna be battle again between vettel and Hamilton only; maybe Varstappen will deliver if Honda is ok. We will mii Ricciardo up front. Alonso in a better car would have given lot more interest in f1 for last 4-5 years; for the future also.
Me for example: I like Riciardo, Alonso and a little bit Lewis. Next year maybe i won't watch GPs, even because in Italy you have to pay
He will be 38 next season, past his best and the age when you retire. He wasn't in championship battles anyway and wouldn't be in '19. His retirement doesn't change anything racing/entertainment wise.
Marketing - yes, it's measureable, that's why McL paid him 30+ million instead of spending it on the car . Good comparison would be Schumacher's retirement and comeback. F1 didn't fall apart and didn't come back to life. On the contrary - hype baloon quickly deflated and everyone stopped caring about the legend without results or performance.
I can argue showing you how false that is with his agreement about sharing best strategies with Lewis, (a rookie!!), alternatively from first race, until Lewis tried to get the best strategy two consecutive races, wich was the instant Alonso tried to stop the boy, but it will be useless so let´s agree to disagree
Ultimately, the team is bigger than the driver. Any driver.
Lewis, too, learned that lesson when Button joined McLaren and got on well with everyone. Off-track and engaging with the team is just as important as showing up and being the fastest. Alonso, as gifted as he may be, is not bigger than any team and no matter how much you want to argue in his defense about what happened in 2007, he has only himself to blame for making it the unworkable environment it ended up being and having to leave the team. He cheated himself out of contending for at least the 2007 and 2008 championships.
Sorry but I can´t see any sense in your reply... at least if it was refered to mine.
I said Alonso accepted equal treatment with a rookie driver with no experience, sharing best strategies, one race for each. That´s a fact, not an opinion, we all see it from first race to Hungary. Then Lewis tried to break that balance when he tried to get best strategy two consecutive races.
So it was Lewis who thought he was bigger than the team, and that being a rookie driver vs current world champion
But people say it was Alonso who broke the balance...
Here´s a good summary.... from british TV. I find it really funny how they show and accept it was Lewis who did disobey TOs, but at the same time they assume it was Fernando who was claiming for no1 status (the one who did all the team request him to do) while they defend Lewis was right disobeying TOs to defend his own and idividual interests
It´s also important to mention the team did not provide new soft tires to Alonso car for his attempt for pole, wich was shocking for Alonso (obviously), and that´s the reason Aloso says he stayed on pit for longer than usual, he was asking for a reason
Then Lewis put a claim against Alonso, and McLaren did nothing to stop him, harming their own intesests (1-5 instead of teh 1-2 they got on track) instead of solving the problem internally
This sequence is showing an obvious bias from the team to favour Lewis despite he was the only one disobeying TOs, even if british TV will never accept that. Far from the BS they say Alonso was asking for no1 status some fans have bought without questioning
You evidently didn't get what I was talking about. It's utterly irrelevant who was bad, naughty or cheeky. All that matters is that it ultimately comes down to what the team wants and decides. If the team want to favor Hamilton - that's just the way it is. But blackmailing your own team over sensitive data (aka, the "spygate") was always going to make that relationship unworkable and unsustainable. Ultimately, it led to Alonso having to leave the team and the car that had a championship winning car in both 2007 and 2008.
Then he burnt another bridge leading up to 2014 when he grew frustrated at not winning with Ferrari. To think how many championships Alonso might have won if he had stayed at McLaren for 2008 and stayed at Ferrari beyond 2014. In both cases, he left / was forced to leave a potentially championship winning team for a midfield one.
And about 2007; I love how everyone is talking about preferential treatment and poor Alonso - yet, no one cares to mention that back then, with the refueling/qualifying fuel load rules, there was a certain strategic element to be played; E.g. run light during qualifying but then having to start the race on that fuel load. Obviously, that enables you to make a certain compromise; run that bit much lighter to perhaps get pole, but then you may compromise your first stint at the benefit of track position. Having two competitive team-mates then is tricky, because who gets to decide which strategy is best for the race? Do you fuel both equally (e.g. fair game) or do you allow one driver to go slightly lighter to gain an advantage in order to get pole?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think of how this might put McLaren in a very difficult position; On one hand they have a rookie that is quicker than one could have expected and the whole english media ecstatic and on the other, the two time world champion who can not, will not want to be beaten by him? From McLaren's point of view, it would have made little sense to back one over the other, given the stakes in either case. Certainly not against their million investment in the 2-times-world-champion.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
You evidently didn't get what I was talking about. It's utterly irrelevant who was bad, naughty or cheeky. All that matters is that it ultimately comes down to what the team wants and decides. If the team want to favor Hamilton - that's just the way it is. But blackmailing your own team over sensitive data (aka, the "spygate") was always going to make that relationship unworkable and unsustainable. Ultimately, it led to Alonso having to leave the team and the car that had a championship winning car in both 2007 and 2008.
Then he burnt another bridge leading up to 2014 when he grew frustrated at not winning with Ferrari. To think how many championships Alonso might have won if he had stayed at McLaren for 2008 and stayed at Ferrari beyond 2014. In both cases, he left / was forced to leave a potentially championship winning team for a midfield one.
And about 2007; I love how everyone is talking about preferential treatment and poor Alonso - yet, no one cares to mention that back then, with the refueling/qualifying fuel load rules, there was a certain strategic element to be played; E.g. run light during qualifying but then having to start the race on that fuel load. Obviously, that enables you to make a certain compromise; run that bit much lighter to perhaps get pole, but then you may compromise your first stint at the benefit of track position. Having two competitive team-mates then is tricky, because who gets to decide which strategy is best for the race? Do you fuel both equally (e.g. fair game) or do you allow one driver to go slightly lighter to gain an advantage in order to get pole?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think of how this might put McLaren in a very difficult position; On one hand they have a rookie that is quicker than one could have expected and the whole english media ecstatic and on the other, the two time world champion who can not, will not want to be beaten by him? From McLaren's point of view, it would have made little sense to back one over the other, given the stakes in either case. Certainly not against their million investment in the 2-times-world-champion.
Plus, many people don't know this, is how McLaren works. Both drivers have their own strategy team, who's job it is to look after their drivers best interest. In that respect they have equal opportunities. Other teams like Mercedes have one team that has the job of getting the best result for the team, this was something for Hamilton for instance to get his head around the first season. Alonso is used to the Briatore approach, to have the strategy team work for him and the team second and his teammate third. So yes, within McLaren there was a team favouring Hamilton, because it was their job.
Regarding 2007 season, people just underestimate the amount of pressure/bias that the british media can have on the teams. Alonso was just unlucky he wasn't British (and Hamilton is)...
Alonso was just unlucky he wasn't British (and Hamilton is)...
Nope. Alonso was unlucky that his rookie team mate was the real deal who had no fear of sharing the garage with the reigning World Champion. It wouldn't have mattered what Hamilton's nationality was - he was just too damn fast and that put pressure on Alonso. Alonso "lashed out" as that was all he could do - he couldn't "out-quick" Hamilton so he had to try to put pressure on the team. Sadly for Alonso, Ron Dennis doesn't take that from his drivers. In other teams, it may well have worked.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Alonso was just unlucky he wasn't British (and Hamilton is)...
Nope. Alonso was unlucky that his rookie team mate was the real deal who had no fear of sharing the garage with the reigning World Champion. It wouldn't have mattered what Hamilton's nationality was - he was just too damn fast and that put pressure on Alonso. Alonso "lashed out" as that was all he could do - he couldn't "out-quick" Hamilton so he had to try to put pressure on the team. Sadly for Alonso, Ron Dennis doesn't take that from his drivers. In other teams, it may well have worked.
In retrospect, it looked a lot like Prost-Senna in 1988. The young hot challenger coming into the team against a slightly paranoid world champion who is used to have a team (even McLaren in the years before that season) build around him. Both went to Ferrari and both got sacked there
Alonso was just unlucky he wasn't British (and Hamilton is)...
Nope. Alonso was unlucky that his rookie team mate was the real deal who had no fear of sharing the garage with the reigning World Champion. It wouldn't have mattered what Hamilton's nationality was - he was just too damn fast and that put pressure on Alonso. Alonso "lashed out" as that was all he could do - he couldn't "out-quick" Hamilton so he had to try to put pressure on the team. Sadly for Alonso, Ron Dennis doesn't take that from his drivers. In other teams, it may well have worked.
OK, it wasn't a case of Hamilton trashing Alonso, they were in similar pace. The hype and the pressure from the media shifted the dynamics inside the team. All the press in the UK were ecstatic that a young British driver is superfast and capable of winning the championship and demanding the British team to focus on the British driver. I don't know where you live but unless living in the UK you would never understand the mentality of a British company, especially McLaren being a very traditional British one.
. Good comparison would be Schumacher's retirement and comeback. F1 didn't fall apart and didn't come back to life. On the contrary - hype baloon quickly deflated and everyone stopped caring about the legend without results or performance.
