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It's obvious teams didn't find hi mas toxic as you do, since both red bull wanted to sign him twice and ferrari was offering him a new deal in 2014.
I can't find any evidence to suggest RedBull wanted to sign Alonso twice. Evidently, they had talks in 2008 - which was just reconfirmed again by Helmut Marko.
Phil, I get where you're coming from, but that's Montezemolo's take AFTER Alonso left. There will obviously be some posturing, especially when they always say Ferrari is above any driver. They either mutually agreed not to continue together after Ferrari didn't cave on Alonso's contract terms, or Alonso decided to leave or Ferrari decided to ditch him and get Vettel. We might find out the truth in a couple of years time when certain autobiographies might come out and shed some light. If you judge it from the interviews in 2014, Alonso seemed more dissatisfied with Ferrari, than Ferrari with him. Especially after making a highly regarded Kimi from Lotus look very ordinary that season.
My geniune belief is that, at his peak, no team would've backed away from taking him as a lead driver. In 2010 he got the most coveted seat in F1 right after causing one of their rivals to explode in a huge scandal with enormous monetary costs. Ferrari knew and they didn't care. Top drivers will always be difficult to manage and throw tantrums when things are not going well. Schumacher had an amazing attitude from that perspective, but that was also helped because he didn't have any direct rivals to threaten his supremacy in terms of silverware. If another driver would've won all titles from 1996 until 1999, he might not have been so patient with Ferrari.
However, as you rightly said, we can't feel bad for Alonso. And I don't. I feel bad for us, the fans. I know F1 is about technical ability, but it's also about the drivers. Or it should be. The precise engineering and the huge budgets of this era reduce driver contribution to very little. I'd argue that any driver on the current grid would've won the 2014 - 2016 championships. Similar to some of Schumacher's titles. I think a race on Saturday in equal machinery that counts (at least partially) for the WDC and the main race on Sunday to count for the WCC would be a good compromise with epic races. Allow young drivers to shine, while offering a great spectacle for the fans and keeping the ethos of F1 alive, all at the same time.
Last edited by alexx_88 on 21 Aug 2018, 21:37, edited 2 times in total.
It drives me nuts when I spent two long posts trying to explain something, and then I notice before my reply there was another post wich do explain perfectly what I was trying to explain, but much better and in a much shorter post
Thanks, Andre, I've seen you battle against the same ideas quite successfully I'd say.
I truly respect Alonso for what he can do with the car. Had some encounters with him personally that don't paint him in the best manner, but that doesn't take anything away from the beast of a driver that he is.
Alternative history: what would need to have occurred for Alonso to have ended up at RB '09-'13? Or a non-Renault championship contender pre-2007, or Ferrari '17-'18, or Mercedes '14-'18. What other paths could have opened after Minardi? Perhaps none?
It´s amazing how some people keep ingoring facts, so they can keep repeating spygate was the cause of the problems instead of the consequence.
I even posted a video where even the british TV show it was Lewis who disobeyed TOs and went against the team first, but some people is unable to remove their red tinted glasses...
Alternative history: what would need to have occurred for Alonso to have ended up at RB '09-'13? Or a non-Renault championship contender pre-2007, or Ferrari '17-'18, or Mercedes '14-'18. What other paths could have opened after Minardi? Perhaps none?
It's all what if's I think.
- Would Vettel be in that STR in '08? If Kubica didn't have that accident in Montreal '07, would Vettel be in that BMW-Sauber?
- And if that hadn't happen, would he be in that STR in '08?
- If that didn't happen, he wouldn't be in a RB in '09.
Meanwhile Webber was at RB and he got along well with Fernando. I wouldn't be surprised if Fernando would have joined RB in '09 driving alongside his buddy. 2009 was also the beginning of a new era in technical regulation changes. I think anyone would want to drive a Newey designed car.
It´s amazing how some people keep ingoring facts, so they can keep repeating spygate was the cause of the problems instead of the consequence.
Because at the end of the day, it was Lewis who got to stay and went on to win the 2008 championship, while Alonso had to leave and settle back in at a midfield team. You can defend Alonso all you want - at the end of the day, he gave up a championship winning seat through his actions. One could also argue that no matter how bad things are or however unfair they may seem, you don't bite the hand that is feeding you. In other words, no, you don't blackmail your team, your boss, your employer. Try doing that at your firm, no matter how gifted an employee you are and I can pretty much guarantee your working relationship will go beyond rescue.
Alonso had it stuck in his head that he is the best driver there is and that any team will buckle over to sign him and support his ambitions. It's what one might call having an attitude problem.
Reality check: A team consists of hundredths of employees. It's effectively a multi billion enterprise. No matter how great Alonso is, he is but one single individual. No one is ever greater than the team. Alonso over his F1 career will have learned, the painful way, that his 'success' comes down to being at the right team with the right car. Twice in his career he left the team that had that car. And he will also have learned that drivers are easily replaceable.
PS: The same applies to any other driver too, even a Hamilton who is a publicity magnet outside F1. At any given day, Hamilton is as successful as he is, because he drives that Mercedes. If he gets too cocky, he is easily replaceable too. If Hamilton hadn't been sitting at Mercedes during 2014-2017, someone else would have been a 2-4 time world champion.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Reality check: A team consists of hundredths of employees. It's effectively a multi billion enterprise. No matter how great Alonso is, he is but one single individual. No one is ever greater than the team. Alonso over his F1 career will have learned, the painful way, that his 'success' comes down to being at the right team with the right car. Twice in his career he left the team that had that car. And he will also have learned that drivers are easily replaceable.
I think that's a very good way of putting it. Timing and keeping doors open are more important in F1 than having that extra 1-2 tenths in less than ideal conditions. I absolutely agree about 2007-2008, but what was the second time? I totally don't agree with Ferrari, who were another 2 years and another major restructuring away from being at the top. I distinctly remember in 2010-2014 people saying that there's no guarantee Ferrari will ever have a top car as most of its history wasn't spent at the top. A gigantic crystal ball was needed to anticipate Marchionne getting in there, putting money in and sorting it all out.
Anyway, choose any of the top drivers on the grid that aren't Hamilton or Vettel and we can see that, even if you're the nicest guy in the paddock, there are no guarantees you'll ever get a seat that matches the talent. If, instead of Mercedes, Honda would've come back in and bought Brawn, who would've won Mercedes' 4 championships? Button would've probably gotten in there and gotten 2 or 3. And then Hamilton's faith would've been similar to Alonso's, but with only one championship to his name. Also, if Renault don't come true, I'm prepared to bet Ricciardo won't win a WDC. And what will be the explanation for that?
Because at the end of the day, it was Lewis who got to stay and went on to win the 2008 championship, while Alonso had to leave and settle back in at a midfield team...
So now the cause for that does not matter... despite the team promising equal treatment but backing up the one who disobeyed them orders first. Ok
I'm not defending Alonso's blackmail, only tryings to show that was not the cause for the intrateam problems but Alonso's reaction to Lewis causing intrateam problems
Yes, I was referring to that second team being Ferrari. Ferrari is generally referred to as being the most prestigious team there is - the dream of any driver, the team most drivers dream about ending up and finishing their career. Even Hamilton, who will probably never end up there, has spoken in a similar light about Ferrari. Alonso was there, came so close to winning twice, but left, not to end his career but to a different team. And he left to McLaren, who twice in a year was severely underperforming, losing lots of gifted engineers to competitors (many ended up at Mercedes). Even in 2014, McLaren was no where, despite having the best engine on the grid, in a season where the engine was perhaps the biggest performance differentiator. Just look at how it propelled Williams to podiums. McLaren, was no where, the trend curve pointing downwards.
Ferrari for sure had difficult years during 2010-2013, but even so, they were extremely successful and competitive. In 2010 and 2012, it could have been a toss-up. Even in 2013, Ferrari won 2 races that year and Alonso was a regularly on the podium. Despite the Vettel/RedBull dominance that year, he was still 2nd by years end by a big margin to Mark Webber in 3rd. 2014 is what it is - a new formula, one of the biggest changes in the history of the modern F1 era. For sure, Renault and Ferrari got it wrong, but with the token system in place, it was always clear that there would be big improvements, at the very least by next year. Ferrari may not have won any championships since 2007, but Ferrari has been consistently a top 3 performer, the only exception being 2009 and 2014.
You can say anything you want, but to give that up - the dream of any driver of driving for the most successful F1 team in history and consistent performers over the years - well, it takes a little bit more than an underperforming car. IMO, it's clear to me that there were issues and frustrations. There are heaps of indications of that as well. Horner implied this in his reasoning why Alonso wouldn't be considered at RB, but there are also credible publications that picked up on this during the 2013-2014 seasons. And Alonso didn't leave Ferrari for a championship winning car (e.g. Mercedes), he left for a team that was at that point ranked 5th with no recent history of success. In my opinion, that speaks volumes as to how that relationship was going at Ferrari. After 2013, many things changed. They brought in Kimi, a former F1 champion as Alonso's teammate, and during 2014 they started to pursue Vettel. That too is very telling about what was going on behind the scenes.
In my opinion (and yes, it's just my opinion) - his history in F1 has painted him as being very impetuous. F1 is and always has been a team-sport - a team-effort. You win and lose with the team. From 2010 to 2014, he was driving for possibly the most desirable team and was the 2nd most successful driver (behind Vettel driving for RedBull). He had a team that pretty much worshiped him, until things went south from 2013 and beyond. I firmly believe it took more than an underwhelming car in 2014 to leave that and to leave it for a team that had considerably less success (McLaren). He still joined McLaren in 2015 and quickly, his frustrations resurfaced, now pointed specifically at Honda's engine. And you can say anything you want, but Alonso being the face of the team, IMO had an impact on that relationship between McLaren and Honda. This all just stems of an attitude of a driver who sees himself as something greater, rather than as part of a larger team and chain who are all part and crucial to ones success.
Sadly, it seems this attitude and mindset has followed right over to his fans too, calling it a "tragedy" that he only has 2 championships to his name while painting him as a the victim of being let down by the cars he has driven.
IMO - his departure will be the best thing for McLaren. They might lose the 3 tenths in performance he brings to the team, but on the positive side, they will no longer have an impatient star driver to worry about. They can re-organize, start low, with fewer expectations and gradually build up a functioning team again - without the publicity. Just as Ferrari did in 2015 when they signed Vettel. Vettel, who isn't much unlike Michael Schumacher, an incredible team-player who always put his team ahead of all considerations, at least publicly (and I'm not even a Schumacher fan!).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
I don't know where you live but unless living in the UK you would never understand the mentality of a British company, especially McLaren being a very traditional British one.
I'm British. I'm well aware that the UK media love to hype British sports stars. I'm also well aware that intelligent people, as found in F1 teams, don't fall for that sort of stuff quite so easily as "John down the pub" does.
Sorry to say this, but that´s a pretty naive point of view.
F1 is about money, for money marketing is crucial, marketing is about people´s point of view about your company, and for that media plays a huge role, they can and actually manipulate people´s point of view at will.
No company want´s media telling bad things about your company, and McLaren is not an exception
Add to that McLaren were also very interested on Lewis beating Alonso (a marketing bomb), and you get 2007 season, aka "we don´t fight Kimi, we fight Alonso".
Totally agree, marketing wise it would have been a suicide for McLaren not to favour Hamilton.
PS: The same applies to any other driver too, even a Hamilton who is a publicity magnet outside F1. At any given day, Hamilton is as successful as he is, because he drives that Mercedes. If he gets too cocky, he is easily replaceable too. If Hamilton hadn't been sitting at Mercedes during 2014-2017, someone else would have been a 2-4 time world champion.
Indeed so. Rosberg would, most likely, be a 4-time champion today.
One thing Hamilton has done, is try to curb his tantrums and keep the team happy - something I think Rosberg was better at inherently. Hamilton is not always successful at keeping his cool, admittedly, but he has always made sure he praises the team on the good days. On the bad days he has a passive-aggressive dig at the team rather than shouting "embarrassing!" to all who can hear. I think Alonso has, understandably, let his exasperation get the better of him in too public a way for teams, other than RedBull perhaps, to accept.
All drivers have a sense of entitlement about them. They are, mostly, from well-to-do backgrounds and have been helped/pushed/driven from a young age. They are generally pretty handy in lower formulae and expect to be able to compete in F1. Some manage it, many don't. Even the ones that do succeed have bad times - getting through those is almost the biggest challenge an F1 driver faces. Alonso had a period of great success early in his F1 career, Hamilton did, Schumacher did etc. Alonso has been unfortunate in maiing a couple of bad team choices at inopportune times. Schumacher went to Ferrari and, along with a core team from Benetton, made Ferrari successful. Hamilton went to a Mercedes team that was finding its feet. Along with a core of successful engineers, he has been successful. Alonso just didn't make the right jump at the right time.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Ferrari for sure had difficult years during 2010-2013, but even so, they were extremely successful and competitive.
Extremely successful? That depends on what do you consider a success for, in your own words, the dream team for any driver, the most successful team in F1 history. Many people, including Ferrari staff, think only winning is a success for such a team, and they didn´t win one single WDC or WCC in that period. None.
2014 is what it is - a new formula, one of the biggest changes in the history of the modern F1 era. For sure, Renault and Ferrari got it wrong, but with the token system in place, it was always clear that there would be big improvements, at the very least by next year.
Hindsight is great, isn´t it?
Ferrari at WCC:
2012: 2nd
2013: 3rd
2014(new rules): 4rd
The only clear thing was Ferrari was going downhill
IMO, it's clear to me that there were issues and frustrations
Obviosuly, for Alonso. Ferrari was quite happy with him and they were willing to keep him for 2015 as they stated theirselves before he left.
Then he left, and as you say Ferrari is not used to any driver moving out voluntarily, so they didn´t get it kindly. But both parts said it at the day, it was Alonso decision to stay or leave, he had a new Ferrari contract prepared if he would decide to stay
There are heaps of indications of that as well. Horner implied this in his reasoning why Alonso wouldn't be considered at RB
Ignoring facts again Phil? What about the link posted by Alexx88 with statements from Horner saying they tried to hire him twice?
Despite your stubborn position about "Alonso has burnt bridges with any top team with his attitude", reality is:
- He didn´t with McLaren wich is undeniable as he´s a McLaren driver today
- He didn´t with Ferrari, as they were offering him a new contract for 2015
- Despite your insistence trying to convice yourself RBR has never been interested on him because of his attitude, that has been proved false too
But I know it´s a lost battle, some people choose to believe what they´re programmed to believe (bhall tribute )
Phil, but a bad day for Hamilton meant a DNF or a pitstop mistake, not driving a car that's hopelessly off the pace and most likely will be in the same position for the foreseeable future.
Let's agree to disagree. My opinion is that Alonso was regarded as one of the 3 drivers of his generation and probably the most complete. He could have had any seat he wanted, proven by the fact he drove for the best 2 teams and was offered a seat in the 3rd. Now things have changed. His commercial appeal is decreasing, age increasing and the top drivers of the next generation are being hyped now. In hindsight, very bad choice in 2014, but all I heard from McLaren back then was: "technological masterpiece", and "piece of art". Somehow I doubt that, behind close doors, they were calling it "next 3 years' backmarker". Alonso saw something changing there, while Ferrari was staying the same. All the changes at ferrari happened a year after.
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