German GP 2008

[Ray]

The Man is truly talented =D> .

Yeah he is good. We will truly see his talent when he has a --- car. It's not hard looking good in the fastest car on track.

If his car was so fast then why did Kovalainen finish down in 5th??

I'm not entirely sure. It probably has alot to do with team orders, having the better strategy always go to Lewis, or maybe his car wasn't to his liking. Probably a bit of all three. Just goes to show you how fast Alonso was from the get go. He didn't have any trouble switching cars and teams, Heikki appears to.

[bazanaius]

How many seasons of F1 had Alonso had before he got to McLaren? He was in a fast car in the Renault in 05/06 when he won the WDC. yet was driving horribly, overambitiously, yesterday. In a --- car - according to your logic that makes him crap too (although I'd disagree with this; he's a quick driver, if a bit of an idiot out of the car).

Heikki is in his second season of F1, and I'd say doing very well at it.
Hamilton is also in his second season of F1, and apparently it was all going to go wrong because he didn't have alonso to set up the car for him... seemed to have a pretty nice setup yesterday (+1 sec a lap quicker than Raikkonen throughout the ENTIRE grandprix?).

If it was just down to team orders, Why didn't Heikki follow Lewis on through to second place?

If it's so easy looking good in the fastest car, why don't you do it? I really can't see how you can say it's purely down to the car - I'd say it lets you compete at the front, but the driver makes you win. I think Heikki and Lewis are showing that this year.

I think that's all your points covered.

[axle]

How many seasons of F1 had Alonso had before he got to McLaren? He was in a fast car in the Renault in 05/06 when he won the WDC. yet was driving horribly, overambitiously, yesterday. In a --- car - according to your logic that makes him crap too (although I'd disagree with this; he's a quick driver, if a bit of an idiot out of the car).

Heikki is in his second season of F1, and I'd say doing very well at it.
Hamilton is also in his second season of F1, and apparently it was all going to go wrong because he didn't have alonso to set up the car for him... seemed to have a pretty nice setup yesterday (+1 sec a lap quicker than Raikkonen throughout the ENTIRE grandprix?).

If it was just down to team orders, Why didn't Heikki follow Lewis on through to second place?

If it's so easy looking good in the fastest car, why don't you do it? I really can't see how you can say it's purely down to the car - I'd say it lets you compete at the front, but the driver makes you win. I think Heikki and Lewis are showing that this year.

I think that's all your points covered.

=D> 3 cheers for logic!

[donskar]

I wrote before the race that if Hamilton dominated, the season could be over. Yes, an over-the-top statement, but Ferrari is in trouble and BMW more so. There is a long way to go, but Ferrari and BMW appear to be a very long way behind.

Kimi seems to have lost his edge, and Massa never had one. He is an excellent number two driver. Not a number one.

Hamilton has now put together back-to-back performances worthy of Schu, Senna, or anyone else you might name. He will always be criticized because:

Success came very soon for him
Success came (apparently) very easily
He stepped right into a top team (didn't "pay his dues"
He appears to be the darling of his team pricipal
The media (print and electronic) are WAY over the top in his praise

But he is no worse than the equal of any driver on the grid and should win more than one WDC.

I think his passing yesterday was overly aggressive. I don't accept the get-out-of-my-way-or-I'll-ram-you approach. (At least that's what it appeared to be on US TV.)

I have no problem with team orders. Remember, there is a constructors championship as well as one for individual drivers. I expected Heiki to move over and he did so. But let's not complain about Ferrari when they do the same.

I don't want Alonso at Ferrari.

[bazanaius]

Lol, I agree about the media comment so funny watching itv (uk) yesterday - they called it a 'move' on Heikki haha!

It was interesting, yesterday I was watching with some mates who are also quite into their F1 - and we all agreed that Massa always seems to us like if he wins it's an accident. We had a great mental image of him hanging on for dear life in the cockpit, screaming his head off - he just instills no confidence that what he does might be repeatable

I think the overtaking moves you're referring to (and I think it's worth pointing out that it wasn't only hamilton doing them; alons did, coulthard did - and it went wrong), are debatable. Persnoally I think they are ok - it's racing in the same way you move across the track to stop them passing off the start. It gives them the choice of braking to let you past or leaving the track, which in this day and age is a relatively safe (if damaging to the race chances) thing to do. I'd say it is definitely not on the same level as Hill/Schumacher interactions of the mid 90's. If the car is in front, they can take the racing line and people behind have the choice of letting them through or being punished (it is roughly similar to someone making a move from a long way back; it's their job to keep out the way, not the person they're overtaking). I understand it can be difficult to call when the corners come so close together, but I personally think the moves yesterday were fair, and great to watch

[bazanaius]

Oh, and I loved the pit radio of Ron Dennis to Hamilton after the race yesterday..

RD: "Well done lewis, sorry we made it a bit harder for you today, we just wanted to give you a chance to drive a nice car, quickly"
LH: "hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..."

[DaveKillens]

With the added problem of the safety car coming out, I can see the logic of why Hamilton did not pit. He had already pitted, and was on a half load of fuel, and the harder compound. If he had pitted, it would have to be to fill the car to the end, and thus, put on the softer compound tires to run the last 30 laps. And that's Hamilton's problem, with his style, the soft tires would not have lasted 30 laps. Instead, the safety car ran three more laps than McLaren expected, and that ate into the amount of laps Hamilton had to make distance before he would have to make a final pit stop. So when the field was released at 27 laps to go, Hamilton just didn't have enough time to make up before he had to pit. And of course, that led us to the wonderful spectacle of a car in third working his way past the two in front, to capture a win. When was the last time you saw that scenario unfold? Geez, been a very long time.
And Massa really made a negative impression on me, in how meekly he moved aside for Hamilton. I recall many greats hanging on, holding back those behind, fighting, kicking, scratching, just to stay ahead. Alonso did to to Shu at Imola. Shu has done it countless times, Villeneuve, Senna, they are remembered for such performances. But not Massa, now in the category of a driver who will be forgotten by most when he leaves F1.

[Ray]

How many seasons of F1 had Alonso had before he got to McLaren? He was in a fast car in the Renault in 05/06 when he won the WDC. yet was driving horribly, overambitiously, yesterday. In a --- car - according to your logic that makes him crap too (although I'd disagree with this; he's a quick driver, if a bit of an idiot out of the car).

First of all you missed my point about how well Lewis would perform in a crap car by about a mile. I said I wonder how well he would do in a shitty car. One that was well off the top teams pace and how much he would flatter the car. Alonso drives the Renault, obviously a midfield car by PKs driving, to a top five to top seven car. I wonder if Lewis could do that. I don't know, and I'm not implying he can't do it. I'm sure he could, I just have no proof. He has been off the pace in the past and made bad mistakes trying to slice through the field. I just take serious issue with everyone saying how good he is when he started in a very top tier team. His talent is glaringly obvious, but Alonso and Kimi started from the bottom and not the top and look how they progressed. They became World Champs the hard way. (I'm not saying Lewis hasn't either so don't hang me for that! )

Much like Alonso did yesterday. I know he made mistakes, I even mentioned his bad driving in an earlier post. Go back and read the whole topic before you wade into the deep end.

Vettel did a good job. Especially when he drove Alonso over the line. I think that was a little uncalled for, and I bet that set off Alonsos temper and caused some of the crappy driving afterwards. Glad to see Vettel get a good finish, Lord knows he deserves one.

You must have missed that part.


Alonso was also impressing the hell out of alot of people in the Minardi. His career didn't start at Renault. He got that job because of his performances in a Minardi.

Heikki is in his second season of F1, and I'd say doing very well at it.
Hamilton is also in his second season of F1, and apparently it was all going to go wrong because he didn't have alonso to set up the car for him... seemed to have a pretty nice setup yesterday (+1 sec a lap quicker than Raikkonen throughout the ENTIRE grandprix?).

I don't think I ever said Heikki was doing a bad job. I'm a really big fan of his actually. I do know for a fact he is McLarens number two driver. You can see it in his attitude, his voice, his body language and clearly out on track. So that has to ding his confidence somewhat. I know it would hurt mine. And if we are going to use your logic, then it doesn't matter that Alonso has had more time in F1 than Lewis. Obviously it has no effect on Lewis, so then it shouldn't mean anything to a 2x World Champ.

If it was just down to team orders, Why didn't Heikki follow Lewis on through to second place?

I'm not entirely sure. It probably has alot to do with team orders, having the better strategy always go to Lewis, or maybe his car wasn't to his liking. Probably a bit of all three. Just goes to show you how fast Alonso was from the get go. He didn't have any trouble switching cars and teams, Heikki appears to.

You must have also missed my reasons why I think Heikki missed out on second place so there they are. I don't know why. He was definitely told to move over, and for whatever reason he didn't latch on to the back of Lewis and ride his coattails. I wish he had, he very much deserves a good finish. But with most of the attention focused on Lewis, he's going to have to fight tooth and nail to get an edge on him.

And boy is Lewis kicking his ass! Everybodys ass for that matter. If I knew why he was a second faster than Kimi per lap all race, I'd be working for Ferrari and not enjoying a friendly debate with you. I'm sure you would do the same with me!

If it's so easy looking good in the fastest car, why don't you do it? I really can't see how you can say it's purely down to the car - I'd say it lets you compete at the front, but the driver makes you win. I think Heikki and Lewis are showing that this year.

I think that's all your points covered.

I totally and completely agree with you. However, the 'why aren't you out there doing it' is both childish and proves that your arguments are no more valid than mine. If that's your stance and using your logic, then why aren't you out there proving me wrong by winning everything then? I'm not that good, and smack me upside the head if I ever claim to be! They are both fantastic drivers. I have lots of respect for Lewis, I'm just not a fan of his. He can drive the hell out of a racecar of that I have no doubt. I will not under any circumstance compare him with a two time World Champion. There isn't room for it. A no time Champion and a two time Champion are not equal. I'll not hold him to that level until he reaches it. Same with any other driver. If you haven't achieved the same feats, you cannot equally compare the two.To compare him to Senn is completely laughable to me. NO ONE will be like Senna. He was and will always remain one of the best. Until Lewis reaches those levels he isn't even close.

[Ray]

I don't accept the get-out-of-my-way-or-I'll-ram-you approach.

That's funny you mention that. He has, for whatever reasons, hit someone from behind three times this season. Alonso in Bahrain, Kimi in Canada, and he hit Heikki and knocked something off Heikkis diffuser but I can't remember which race. I wonder why he's done that. He is one of the best passers in the sport today but he's had some very odd rearendings of people. The speed is obviously there, he smoked evereybody yesterday. Any thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: Nothing against Lewis. Really. I'm just curious why he every-so-slightly touches people with his rear wing, or clobbers them completely in avoidable situations.

[Conceptual]

I don't accept the get-out-of-my-way-or-I'll-ram-you approach.

That's funny you mention that. He has, for whatever reasons, hit someone from behind three times this season. Alonso in Bahrain, Kimi in Canada, and he hit Heikki and knocked something off Heikkis diffuser but I can't remember which race. I wonder why he's done that. He is one of the best passers in the sport today but he's had some very odd rearendings of people. The speed is obviously there, he smoked evereybody yesterday. Any thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: Nothing against Lewis. Really. I'm just curious why he every-so-slightly touches people with his rear wing, or clobbers them completely in avoidable situations.

It's like what I tell my 8 year old daughter. It is ALL about what you pay attention to. You cannot forsee problems if you don't pay attention to the things that can cause them.

There are simply too many distractions on the steering wheel in my opinion. I think a gear indicator, RPM indicator and a brake bias adjuster is all that they should have in the cockpit.

If the teams wanted to save money, and promote road technology, making non-driving operations vanish would probably stop alot of the rediculous actions like Lewis in Canada, or Alonso in Monte Carlo.

Chris

[Belatti]

I tried to read all pages so I don´t "repeat" comments, but they are a lot!

Some thoughts:

- I don´t understand why Timo wasn´t immobilized after such a hard knock. Just for precaution.

- I would put grass outside the hairpin corner, that way the car in the outside line will not back off next time. For those who said Hamilton was in front and others drivers should back off: hell NO! Hamilton was side by side with the cars he passed there! He send the other drivers off track!
If I was driving that Ferrari and a rival tells me: "go out the track and let me pass or we are out" I would choose "we are out" option.

I don´t think Hamilton should be penalized as it was a bravery action and I encourage bravery, the other overtaked drivers are p*ssy.
There are 2 ways of winning: with elegance or cutting your rivals head, Lewis opted for the second unlike in Silverstone

- Alonso should know that a passing manouvre should be planned 2 or 3 curves before and executed carefully. You cannot simply try all arround the track

- Nick has fully recovered from Roberts advantage and he is close in points now. =D>

- Who do you think will be 4th in WCC? Three teams are very very close!

[bazanaius]

I totally and completely agree with you. However, the 'why aren't you out there doing it' is both childish and proves that your arguments are no more valid than mine. If that's your stance and using your logic, then why aren't you out there proving me wrong by winning everything then?

eh? I was saying its a lot harder than you were implying. That's why I'm not there.

[Tom Castellani]

I think Hamilton drove a great race, also I don't think the passes he made were unfair. He put his car in a position to make those block passes and the other drivers are smart enough to give racing room. In this case racing room included being off the track due to the runoff.

Now, despite not being a fan of Massa's I'm very unbiased and feel that every driver on the grid deserves their place and I can't criticize one of them. Put yourself in his shoes, your car isn't performing well, your brakes are fading and a car that wasn't behind you a couple laps ago is now right up your gearbox. What does that tell you? He's quicker than you! Simple, you can put up a fight and make yourself wide as possible or he's going to get past. Now going into the hairpin, he's inches away from you in the slip and you're going into a hard braking zone with high constantina effect. Either you brake and run the risk of him smashing into the back of you or you push it and out-brake yourself to avoid the former happening but run very wide in the process. The logical step is to move aside... Sure you could get overtaken but you're now in a position to fight back, exactly what Massa did. Unfortunately his comeback was unsuccessful and again, I think Lewis had every right to make it hard for Massa.

So for those of you who are saying Massa was being wimpy, he's a racer and would have known everything I just explained. There is of course a championship at stake as well and the last thing he would want is a silly retirement over 3rd.

Now Piquet did get lucky with the safety car and his one stop strategy but at the same time he could have done a lot worse. He drove a consistent race, which is more than I can say for Alonso on this particular occasion. He was wise to let Hamilton go because although he's not fighting for the championship, a good result is exactly what Renault needs right now. If he'd have fought then we could have had posts like; "OMG STUPID IDIOT PIQUET TOOK HAMILTON OUT, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE EVEN BEEN THERE IT WAS JUST LUCK, RENAULT SHOULD FIRE HIM AND THE FIA SHOULD TAKE HIS SUPERLICENCE BLA BLA BLA BLA" Point in fact, people will always criticize whether someone does well or not. Think what could have been and you'll realise the logic in what did happen.

The problem is similar with Hamilton. If he'd come into F1, not got any good results and messed up a couple times (almost like Piquet at the moment) then no one would have batted an eyelid. It's because he's been successful that the moment he messes up people tear him apart. I admit Montreal was a big one and I think everyone kinda needs to put it behind them. The main issue though is that people not in the UK think the press here loves him, in fact they did for about 15 minutes in 2007. After that they started concentrating on his private life and they are the first to kick him down when something goes wrong.

For instance, I read an article about how badly he was doing after running wide in quali at Silverstone. 4th on the grid... He was pushing hard and went wide, that sort of stuff happens in motor racing. So British public, what the hell do you want?! Someone who pushes hard, succeeds and occasionally over-cooks it or some limp-dick who never wins anything? Which ever way you play it I fear that F1 fans are getting as bad as football hooligans, they understand less and less about racing and concentrate on MY TEAM IS BETTER THAN YOURS HAMILTON SUX LOL. Again, no F1 driver in my mind sucks... People should learn to understand that a little more.

[Steven]

I don´t understand why Timo wasn´t immobilized after such a hard knock. Just for precaution.

Obviously he should have, but on the other hand he may have signalled he's fine, and only felt dizzy when standing up straight. Not sure what happened there either.

I would put grass outside the hairpin corner, that way the car in the outside line will not back off next time. For those who said Hamilton was in front and others drivers should back off: hell NO! Hamilton was side by side with the cars he passed there! He send the other drivers off track!
If I was driving that Ferrari and a rival tells me: "go out the track and let me pass or we are out" I would choose "we are out" option.

I don´t think Hamilton should be penalized as it was a bravery action and I encourage bravery, the other overtaken drivers are p*ssy.
There are 2 ways of winning: with elegance or cutting your rivals head, Lewis opted for the second unlike in Silverstone

Actually, when one car is aside of another, it is totally unfair to move that much aside that the other has no more space to stay on track. It's a matter of interpretation, but when Hamilton repeats that tactic twice in 3 laps, then I think at least he should be warned unofficially. I think that in both cases Hamilton would have had the upper hand at the next corner anyway, so there's no reason for it at all.

Alonso should know that a passing manouvre should be planned 2 or 3 curves before and executed carefully. You cannot simply try all arround the track

As for Fernando, his Renault has had difficulty with traction out of slower corners, and let that be the best opportunity to attempt a pass. For instance after the SC, he outbrakes into the hairpin, is ahead of his competitor but then gets stuck behind Vettel on the inside line, allowing the other to re-pass. As a consequence, he's a bit later on the accellerator than the others, and adding that to his Renault, another guy passes him.
We could argue for ages whether he should attempt the pass, but yes he should. How much of a racer would you be when you are happy to sit behind some car lap after lap when you know you are faster?

[vs331]

Massa (and every racer for that matter) needs to watch the Rossi master class at Laguna yesterday. It was a masterful display of how to block your way to victory when your opponent is almost half a second faster per lap. WOW =D>