When a spectacle becomes a parody of his own

[Just_a_fan]

As for overtaking, "more exciting races" etc., the following is interesting:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

Note how overtaking was rare in the refuelling days.

[zac510]

And it took until the 15th race of the season for this.

[Andres125sx]

No moto gp rider has over 100kg fuel your point being.

Fact is the same thing would happen in motogp if they had tyre changes. The slower bikes could set a fastest lap. So yes I am serious.

Are you serious? Please let me know of all the racing series where someone riding or driving the 4th/5th best car/bike would be unable to set a fastest lap with a new set of tyres at the end of a race with no refuelling. As your suggesting F1 is the only one ?

I'd have a good guess that most people who have a problem with F1 , dislike the number 44

You can´t be more wrong, Lewis is my second favourite after Alonso. Well, and Ricciardo, not sure about the order to be sincere, but you can be sure I don´t dislike Hamilton, at least while he´s in the car

Sorry buy I´m not going to argue about other series. If you will, let me know of any other series where drivers/riders make his fastest lap in the race under their own 107% in qualifying

[Andres125sx]

And I really get annoyed with people like you obsessed with posting on threads he don´t like.... posting on threads you don´t like to provoke people participating in that thread can be seen as trolling Phil

If you disagree it´s fine. But it´s also fine if I think something need to be changed and start a thread to share my point of view. If you don´t like it, do not click, it is this easy

So people are only allowed to post on this thread if they agree with you?

That question should go to moderators, I don´t make the rules.

But if someone says he get annoyed with some sort of threads, any reason I cannot say I get annoyed with that kind of replies and suggest not clicking if he don´t like it?

[strad]

. SO if he was slow, what does it say about the other 19 fools on the grid ?

That had lesser cars but even with new tires couldn't catch him without burning up their nice shiny new tires.
The point is that the tires deg rate is something wrong.
Coast to save fuel.... Drive slow so as to conserve tires.... don't get too close, closer than 3 seconds to another car or ruin your tires and brakes.
It's silly and not real racing and I think you know it but enjoy being contrary.

[Jolle]

One of the "problems" might be that they race basically their qualifying car. Track position is key so all the cars are at their best on a single lap with no traffic, most of the times without any compromise. If they were allowed to make some basic setup changes, the general race pace could improve and overtaking (for when you don't put in on pole) might wel improve!

[Andres125sx]

I´m going to clarify my point of view, what I don´t like is:

1- Artificial rules to promote overtaking (DRS, Q3 cars wich can´t choose the tire to start the race, tires built to not last) instead of solving the root of the problem (aero)

2- Even with artificial rules, overtaking is almost impossible on many tracks

3- Lack of uncertainity due to sofisticated computer simulations

4- Due to all 3 points above, many races become completely predictable and drivers can, or must go well below the limit, so mistakes are rare and everything becomes even more predictable


Racing need some uncertainity factor, and I´m missing this

[Big Tea]

Keep in mind the life of the softest tyre and the gap to the next hardest. Taking an extra couple of seconds out of the softest is OK for a lap, maybe 2, but then you have a 27 second pitstop several times a race. If one car is saving tyres everyone else has to or they just get swallowed up in pitstops.

[NathanOlder]

@Andres125s

My original point was all about KMag setting the fastest lap, and I was pointing out that MOST forms of motorsport can do exactly what happened , a slower guy being the fastest because he changed tyres much later than everyone else. You ignore the point I was making and go off with a different question.

1 thing I forgot to mention earlier was you saying

" Hamilton fast lap in race was 107,2% his pole lap, he wouldn´t qualify for the race with that lap "

that last smily face, is you completely, I mean Hamilton's fastest lap was a 1.4 and you say it wouldn't have qualified for the race ? Do you understand how F1 qualifying works ? you spout out all this rubbish making arguments on trash, when you dont even get your facts right and make yourself seem a little foolish.

Even Hamilton's last lap of the race (not pushing at all) was enought to qualify for the race, Lap 14 & 15 for instance, on heavy fuel was enough to qualify, later in the race he was well in to the 1.43's again, enought to qualify.

So my message to you is , dont do this too often, you may cause some serious damage.

[Dr. Acula]

As for overtaking, "more exciting races" etc., the following is interesting:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

Note how overtaking was rare in the refuelling days.

Thanks for posting this.
Unfortunatly this statistics didn't include 2017, the first Season with the wider cars and way more downforce. But...https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13345 ... 25-in-2017 tells us what happend last year.

In my opinion Singapore was so slow and boring because of 3 factors.

The wider and faster cars are clearly a part of the problem. Which shouldn't be surprising because that's what many team engineers said would happen with these new aero rules. Also that was already the main problem during the late 90s' and early 2000's.
On twisty high downforce tracks like Singapore, it's simply impossible to follow an other car closly without ruining the tyres within a few laps. The DRS can't properly compensate this problem because when the cars reach the DRS zones they are to far apart to make a pass or are even so far apart they couldn't use DRS. We saw that, they hardly could close the gap to under a second to a direct opponent in front.

Now, an other mayor contributing factor are indeed the tyres. Yes we saw processions in the late 90s and early 2000s. But never in that extrem slow and ridiculous form we saw in in Singapore now. But Pirelli is actually in a tricky situation here. If they would have brought harder compounds to Singapore, we maybe would have saw exactly the same thing happen. Everybody would have done one stop and simply drove to the end.
The problem here is, that the fastest strategy would always be a one stopper and simply manage the tyres to the end if nothing unusual happend. Singapore is a bit like Monaco in this regard, track position is everything because overtaking an about equali fast car is next to impossible.

And last but not least the track itself. Singapore is i think pretty much the longest race when it comes to actual race time. Even with this faster cars and "only" one Safety car, the GP nearly reached 2 houres. Well, that's a bit of a problem under the current rules, because of the fuel limit. The average fuelflow is probably the lowest in the whole season on a more or less stop and go circuit. So the engine power compared to the Quali is way down. This also added to the slow pace during the race.
Also some teams probably speculated for a second Safety car to do a second stop because only one Safety car in Singapore is very unusual. But the second Safety car never happend, so everbody was more or less forced to drive to the end with the tyres they get in their first stop.

Add this all togheter and you end up with a boring and slow race.

[DiogoBrand]

Andres; I agree totally. When the McLaren can set fastest lap three quarters of the way thru the race it shows just how much conserving tires affect racing and the race.

Exactly

Drivers don't make a difference? What about the gap from Lewis to Bottas, from Vettel to Kimi, from Hamilton to Vettel in what we assume are equal cars?

They are definitely not cruising around, the difference is easy to explain: No qualifying mode, 100Kg of added fuel, tyres that must last over a longer distance than only one lap and there you have it.

So you think now that magically means a 11-12 seconds slower laptimes for same car and same driver? Take a timer and count to 12 please, I think you´re understimating what 12 seconds are for same car and same driver. Difference between F1 and GP2 pole times are not that big....

You think McLaren is fast enough to make the fastest lap in the race at the last third of the race?

You think Magnussen did the fastest lap in the race because he was the fastest car? He really was 1 second faster to Hamilton and 2.8 seconds faster to Vettel?

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... -laps.html

The difference between Formula 2's pole and fastest lap at the British GP was around 4.5 seconds, for F1 it was 4.8, and that's not even considering that F2 doesn't need to babisit their engines as much.
When you take a car and add 13% weight in the form of fuel, need to make their tyres last for a whole stint, their engine isn't in one-lap-mode and needs to last for around 7 races, all of that on a circuit where cornering and acceleration matter as much as in Singapore, 6 seconds aren't all that much.

Racing has always been about who goes faster from start to finish, not the fastest lap. If you expect F1 engineers to tell their drivers "Go as fast as you can, qualifying lap every lap!" you're probably watching the wrong sport.

[NathanOlder]

Give up with this thread mate, its only going to be locked if it carries on the way it is.

[Andres125sx]

@Andres125s

My original point was all about KMag setting the fastest lap, and I was pointing out that MOST forms of motorsport can do exactly what happened , a slower guy being the fastest because he changed tyres much later than everyone else. You ignore the point I was making and go off with a different question.

I know, but you keep ignoring even Alonso set a fastest lap in the race, and he´s not the 4th-5th car, but the 6th-7th

1 thing I forgot to mention earlier was you saying

" Hamilton fast lap in race was 107,2% his pole lap, he wouldn´t qualify for the race with that lap "

that last smily face, is you completely, I mean Hamilton's fastest lap was a 1.4 and you say it wouldn't have qualified for the race ? Do you understand how F1 qualifying works ? you spout out all this rubbish making arguments on trash, when you dont even get your facts right and make yourself seem a little foolish.

Even Hamilton's last lap of the race (not pushing at all) was enought to qualify for the race, Lap 14 & 15 for instance, on heavy fuel was enough to qualify, later in the race he was well in to the 1.43's again, enought to qualify.

So my message to you is , dont do this too often, you may cause some serious damage.

Sorry but it´s funny you accuse me of not understanding the point, when it´s you who don´t understand the point.

The point is, in race trim Hamilton drove out of his own 107% in qualifying, same car and same driver, even in his fastest lap of the race. That speaks volumes about what is the real race trim in F1 currently, they´re not racing, they´re cruising around, and I hate this

I know it was because it´s Singapore so since no car can overtake they go that slow to avoid any more pitstop than necessary, but it still is ruining what racing is about, wich in my humble opinion is pushing to the limits. Out of your own 107% is going sooo slow that to me it´s become a parody of his own

Did you get it now?

[Andres125sx]

Andres; I agree totally. When the McLaren can set fastest lap three quarters of the way thru the race it shows just how much conserving tires affect racing and the race.

Exactly

Drivers don't make a difference? What about the gap from Lewis to Bottas, from Vettel to Kimi, from Hamilton to Vettel in what we assume are equal cars?

They are definitely not cruising around, the difference is easy to explain: No qualifying mode, 100Kg of added fuel, tyres that must last over a longer distance than only one lap and there you have it.

So you think now that magically means a 11-12 seconds slower laptimes for same car and same driver? Take a timer and count to 12 please, I think you´re understimating what 12 seconds are for same car and same driver. Difference between F1 and GP2 pole times are not that big....

You think McLaren is fast enough to make the fastest lap in the race at the last third of the race?

You think Magnussen did the fastest lap in the race because he was the fastest car? He really was 1 second faster to Hamilton and 2.8 seconds faster to Vettel?

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... -laps.html

The difference between Formula 2's pole and fastest lap at the British GP was around 4.5 seconds, for F1 it was 4.8, and that's not even considering that F2 doesn't need to babisit their engines as much.
When you take a car and add 13% weight in the form of fuel, need to make their tyres last for a whole stint, their engine isn't in one-lap-mode and needs to last for around 7 races, all of that on a circuit where cornering and acceleration matter as much as in Singapore, 6 seconds aren't all that much.

Except with that conditions you´re describing it was 11-12 seconds, not 6, 6 was for the fastest lap with empty tank.

Do you still think 11-12 seconds per lap slower is not that much

[gibells]

As for overtaking, "more exciting races" etc., the following is interesting:
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

Note how overtaking was rare in the refuelling days.

I like a good argument, but come on, you're clouding the issue, and you know you are. There is more than one issue at play. The OWG solved the problem with the overtakes, so there is only 1 year of data to draw from, i.e. 2009.

That year we had cars more easily able to overtake, no refueling, and importantly, no DRS.