When a spectacle becomes a parody of his own

[mertol]

Singapore 2018 GP, poleman and winner laptimes:

Pole lap: 1:36.0
First laps in the race 1:47-1:48
Fast lap in race 1:42.9

We all know about fuel load, racing is not qualifying, blah blah blah... 11-12 seconds slower than in qualifying is, IMHO, embarrasing for F1. The fast lap for Lewis with empty tank was still 6.9 seconds slower than his own Q lap.

6.9 seconds. There was a time when this was unconceivable in f1. Today people don´t even notice...

Anyone who has ever raced at anything know how SLOW you must go to increase your laptimes 7 seconds, even if the tyres are 3 seconds slower (wich they are not), it´s still a 4 second difference. Still a difference wich means drivers are not racing, they´re just cruising around.


I´m the only one who can´t cope with this?


Toni Cuquerella (spanish tv) once said a thing wich did explain it all. Today computers are so advanced they can simulate almost everything, so teams know exactly what´s the fastest strategy, no room for feelings or talented drivers anymore, computers are telling the pace drivers must go, and cruising (tyre managment) and coasting (fuel managment) are faster on a GP length than going full attack mode

We can´t ban computers, but we can shorten a GP length so long term strategies makes no more sense and they´re forced to race again. Any other idea will be welcome


Sorry for the rant

Or stop saving all kinds of crap and let them use as much fuel and as many tires and engines as they like. Also give them tires that are not made of cheese.

[NathanOlder]

Then costs go even further out of control, williams, force India , Sauber and even Mclaren all quit and then F1 folds and is no more.

[NathanOlder]

@Andres125s

My original point was all about KMag setting the fastest lap, and I was pointing out that MOST forms of motorsport can do exactly what happened , a slower guy being the fastest because he changed tyres much later than everyone else. You ignore the point I was making and go off with a different question.

I know, but you keep ignoring even Alonso set a fastest lap in the race, and he´s not the 4th-5th car, but the 6th-7th

I keep ignoring that do I ! WTF has Alonso got to do with Mag setting the fastest lap of the race ? And why do you keep going on about the 107% rule, when the ONLY time in the weekend that means anything is Q1, and you keep banging on about Lewis in Q3 and the Race!

Calm down fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack!

[zac510]

I know it was because it´s Singapore so since no car can overtake they go that slow to avoid any more pitstop than necessary, but it still is ruining what racing is about, wich in my humble opinion is pushing to the limits. Out of your own 107% is going sooo slow that to me it´s become a parody of his own

Did you get it now?

I get your point, but in my humble opinion the racing is about winning the grand prize.

If you can do it with the least amount of risk (ie chance of crashing) as possible, that's superior. That's the same for anything in life - reduce the risk and increase the prize.

[dans79]

Then costs go even further out of control, williams, force India , Sauber and even Mclaren all quit and then F1 folds and is no more.

Everything has to die eventually! Personally, I'd prefer to watch it go down in a blaze of glory, than slowly bleed out under a management and rules structure that's nothing more than a thinly veiled nanny state.

[WaikeCU]

@Andres125s

My original point was all about KMag setting the fastest lap, and I was pointing out that MOST forms of motorsport can do exactly what happened , a slower guy being the fastest because he changed tyres much later than everyone else. You ignore the point I was making and go off with a different question.

I know, but you keep ignoring even Alonso set a fastest lap in the race, and he´s not the 4th-5th car, but the 6th-7th

I keep ignoring that do I ! WTF has Alonso got to do with Mag setting the fastest lap of the race ? And why do you keep going on about the 107% rule, when the ONLY time in the weekend that means anything is Q1, and you keep banging on about Lewis in Q3 and the Race!

Calm down fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack!

Exactly. I think some seem to forget that the cars all have different modes. Fuel saving mode, 'Party' mode, etc.

The one uses more fuel, the one less. Hell, I don't even know how many different modes they have. It could be 20 or more. Each with different ERS behaviour and then add to that variable clutch, lsd and gearbox settings? I mean there's also a seperate modes for race starts. dry, damp, wet, you name it...

These all have an effect on lap times. I would not even be surprised if Merc for example has a tire saving mode.

[DiogoBrand]

Exactly




So you think now that magically means a 11-12 seconds slower laptimes for same car and same driver? Take a timer and count to 12 please, I think you´re understimating what 12 seconds are for same car and same driver. Difference between F1 and GP2 pole times are not that big....

You think McLaren is fast enough to make the fastest lap in the race at the last third of the race?

You think Magnussen did the fastest lap in the race because he was the fastest car? He really was 1 second faster to Hamilton and 2.8 seconds faster to Vettel?

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... -laps.html

The difference between Formula 2's pole and fastest lap at the British GP was around 4.5 seconds, for F1 it was 4.8, and that's not even considering that F2 doesn't need to babisit their engines as much.
When you take a car and add 13% weight in the form of fuel, need to make their tyres last for a whole stint, their engine isn't in one-lap-mode and needs to last for around 7 races, all of that on a circuit where cornering and acceleration matter as much as in Singapore, 6 seconds aren't all that much.

Except with that conditions you´re describing it was 11-12 seconds, not 6, 6 was for the fastest lap with empty tank.

Do you still think 11-12 seconds per lap slower is not that much

I know it was for the fastest lap, I SAID that. I mentioned the difference between fastest lap and pole for F2 as well.
Shouldn't I be comparing apples to apples here? What am I missing?

[Shrieker]

Andres... You sound like you haven't wathced Germany, Italy, or Baku this season. Come on now... If the tires need to be driven in a certain way, then by all means the teams do that.

[mertol]

Then costs go even further out of control, williams, force India , Sauber and even Mclaren all quit and then F1 folds and is no more.

You'll have to prove that. More engines doesn't mean it's more expensive. Tires and fuel are payed for by the suppliers etc. F1 has existed for decades without saving all kinds of crap.

[ScottB]

Maybe tyre lap limits are needed?

The FIA keeps asking for soft, high degradation tyres because it thinks it will improve the show, the teams respond by going slow to eek 20 laps + out of a hypersoft. So, if the tyres are to stay like this, is the answer to say; you can only do 10 laps on a hyper, 20 on an ultra, 30 on a soft etc?

[Andres125sx]

Or stop saving all kinds of crap and let them use as much fuel and as many tires and engines as they like. Also give them tires that are not made of cheese.

I´m afraid that´s not the solution. Fuel is limited to 100kg, but they don´t even use that amount at many GPs because for a GP lenght it´s faster going with a lighter car and coasting. They use under 90kg at several GPs, not only Monaco

That´s the reason I did mention sofisticated computer simulations wich minimize drivers and strategiests roles, everything is calculated and they only follow computer simulations wich will always provide the best result. Well, at least while they introduce the correct data obviously

[Andres125sx]

@Andres125s

My original point was all about KMag setting the fastest lap, and I was pointing out that MOST forms of motorsport can do exactly what happened , a slower guy being the fastest because he changed tyres much later than everyone else. You ignore the point I was making and go off with a different question.

I know, but you keep ignoring even Alonso set a fastest lap in the race, and he´s not the 4th-5th car, but the 6th-7th

I keep ignoring that do I ! WTF has Alonso got to do with Mag setting the fastest lap of the race ? And why do you keep going on about the 107% rule, when the ONLY time in the weekend that means anything is Q1, and you keep banging on about Lewis in Q3 and the Race!

Calm down fella, you'll give yourself a heart attack!

Alonso setting the fastest lap in the race at some point with a normal strategy (not that he put new tires to set it) is an unquestionable evidence about how slow was the race pace from all top cars

And the 107% example was that, another example proving how slow they were during the race, wich is the main point of this thread

Sorry if you don´t like it

[Andres125sx]

I know it was because it´s Singapore so since no car can overtake they go that slow to avoid any more pitstop than necessary, but it still is ruining what racing is about, wich in my humble opinion is pushing to the limits. Out of your own 107% is going sooo slow that to me it´s become a parody of his own

Did you get it now?

I get your point, but in my humble opinion the racing is about winning the grand prize.

If you can do it with the least amount of risk (ie chance of crashing) as possible, that's superior. That's the same for anything in life - reduce the risk and increase the prize.

Of course, and I agree with that, drivers and teams do what they must, winning asuming the least possible amount of risk

It´s the rules wich allow or make possible that drivers and teams can win doing this what I hate, F1 is becoming too artifical, real battles on track are dissapearing, now not even with artifical rules they can fight each other

Bottas ranting about not being able to lap Hulkemberg because in this track he couldn´t get into the 1.2 seconds window to show blue flags was another good example, overtake delta has become so irrationally big that now not even lapping is possible depending on the track. If lapping is a problem, how are we going to see any real battle between cars with similar pace?

[Andres125sx]

The difference between Formula 2's pole and fastest lap at the British GP was around 4.5 seconds, for F1 it was 4.8, and that's not even considering that F2 doesn't need to babisit their engines as much.
When you take a car and add 13% weight in the form of fuel, need to make their tyres last for a whole stint, their engine isn't in one-lap-mode and needs to last for around 7 races, all of that on a circuit where cornering and acceleration matter as much as in Singapore, 6 seconds aren't all that much.

Except with that conditions you´re describing it was 11-12 seconds, not 6, 6 was for the fastest lap with empty tank.

Do you still think 11-12 seconds per lap slower is not that much

I know it was for the fastest lap, I SAID that. I mentioned the difference between fastest lap and pole for F2 as well.
Shouldn't I be comparing apples to apples here? What am I missing?

Read the red part, you stated with 13% added weight, etc. 6 seconds arent´all that much. That´s wrong, with 13% added weight difference is 11-12 seconds. 6 seconds is the difference for the fastest lap at the end of the race, with similar weight to qualifying

[Andres125sx]

Maybe tyre lap limits are needed?

The FIA keeps asking for soft, high degradation tyres because it thinks it will improve the show, the teams respond by going slow to eek 20 laps + out of a hypersoft. So, if the tyres are to stay like this, is the answer to say; you can only do 10 laps on a hyper, 20 on an ultra, 30 on a soft etc?

That´s an idea. Maybe 150% of the max laps Pirelli say for each compound?