2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

[Sieper]

I did not see it as you did. I know it's en vogue to bash against certain drivers (I really don't know why - these people are people, nothing more) but Verstappen would have made the same move as Vettel (my opinion not a fact) and the other one would have let space. And everyone would praise Verstappen for the move. I think that's the only difference here. Verstappen is one of the examples: he often does exactly this move, Vettel did and comes away with it, because other drivers think and get out of the way, before he kills them. Yes, Vettel was to optimistic and that was a mistake but that's not just him and it was not a big one here. There are other drivers who do the same in every race. They usually don't crash because the others can actually see the outcome.

I raced cars when I was young. I would have made the move, Vettel did. So maybe I'm just stupid but I know I am not

No, just No. Come on Marvin. Vettel had a big speed advantage over Verstappen, Yes. Verstappen had such an advantage over Hamilton in China and he went for the OUTSIDE, he didn't "barge his way through" and when he was there (on the outside) Hamilton (offcourse) closed the door, he did not "leave space and everyone would praise Verstappen" as you say. I think you know this not to be truth. Vettel also closes the door (Need only look back one race to illustrate that point). Hamilton almost never comes in the position that he needs to close the door but he too is a tough cooky, f.e. in Bahrein he stood his ground, and rightfully so. They all do, you just can pass a top driver on the inside so easily.

What Vettel should have done is tug in behind Max in Spoon, keep his batteries full (they were whilst Max' were depleted) slipstream through 130r, If that would have gone fantastic he could have passed him at/before chicane entry and otherwise make sure you get a good chicane exit and then empty your battery on the straight and blast passed.

He was just overeager to get passed because he wanted to keep connection with the two front running Mercedes. Just like Max was in Monza 2017 on Massa, max there too didn't want to wait for DRS to get enabled as he was also desperate to keep connection with the front runners. But, tempting as it is to maximize, you should never give in to despair, keep calculating what your chances are.

[sosic2121]

Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more.

So this is where I disagree with you.

My view is that he didn't leave him any room.
Vettel was on curbs with his left tires when they made contact. At that moment Vettel was only tire length behind.
Max said he left him enough space. Well, that's a lie(or lack of space awareness).

IF after the apex Vettel understeered into Max, then I would say it's his fault(like Kimi understeered into Hamilton at Silverstone).

[turbof1]

Thus I don't think this counts as enough room.

You can debate about that. For me that is just about enough room still. For me it would stop being a full car length the moment Vettel's wheels have to touch the grass. I count in the full width of the kerb as part of the track. I agree there's subjectivity in these important details as the universally accepted racing code, the fia's codex and the sporting rules are too vague on to define this. The white line is usually considered part of the track, except F1 drivers have a habit putting all 4 wheels off the track in convenient places to gain laptime, and otherwise take as much of the kerb as possible to widen up the track. Because of that practice, the definition of "track" has been somewhat eroded. So in my opinion a kerb, like that one and not the one that are designed to slow you down (to add even more complexity to the situation), is part of the track and therefore can be considered for that magic 1 car width. I fully can understand a different definition on that. It's how each interprets it.

Of course, us discussing this means Verstappen's squeezing was really around the limit. He really did try to only leave the absolute minimum of space. You could argue if he squeezed one cm too much or if Vettel could not hold the inside line with one cm more. I think at this point the conversation probably moves beyond what is humanly possible even by these drivers, nobody is that precise.

[timbo]

You can debate about that. For me that is just about enough room still. For me it would stop being a full car length the moment Vettel's wheels have to touch the grass.

My point was not that Vettel had to hit the curb, he would anyway, it's just faster. But that in the frame before the crash, Vettel's outer front wheel is already inside of "the width" of Verstappen's car, if one defines the width based on outermost points of the car, i.e. wheels. Of course, being open wheeled single-seater, you could get "inside" of the cars "width" without actually touching, but probably not in a corner and not if the outer car further closes the distance.

[Phil]

I think some of you are missing something:

- Max and Seb were both on the SS tire (assumption being similar cornering speeds).
- Max was taking the ideal line around spoon, hence the quickest way around the corner, going from the outside of the track to the apex and out again.
- Seb was driving much faster, thus closing the gap. Only due to this speed differential was he able "stick his nose" in.
- At the point Max was turning into the corner and to the apex, Vettel was able to reduce his speed to that of Max, but at a much shallower angle into Spoon.
- At the angle Seb was taking into the corner, the speed he was doing, I find it highly unlikely he could have made the corner without making contact even if Max had left more room. Even if Max hadn't been there, his line into Spoon would have been extremely compromised to the point I wonder if he had even made the corner.

By definition, I would say Vettel came in far too hot. Contact was unavoidable, pretty much regardless what Max would have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU&t=29s

[turbof1]

I think some of you are missing something:

- Max and Seb were both on the SS tire (assumption being similar cornering speeds).
- Max was taking the ideal line around spoon, hence the quickest way around the corner, going from the outside of the track to the apex and out again.
- Seb was driving much faster, thus closing the gap. Only due to this speed differential was he able "stick his nose" in.
- At the point Max was turning into the corner and to the apex, Vettel was able to reduce his speed to that of Max, but at a much shallower angle into Spoon.
- At the angle Seb was taking into the corner, the speed he was doing, I find it highly unlikely he could have made the corner without making contact even if Max had left more room. Even if Max hadn't been there, his line into Spoon would have been extremely compromised to the point I wonder if he had even made the corner.

By definition, I would say Vettel came in far too hot. Contact was unavoidable, pretty much regardless what Max would have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU&t=29s

I think you are wrong in your assessment that Vettel would not have made the corner in a reasonable way. It's not a hairpin/chicane where you can easily overshoot your braking point and fly off the track, but a shallower mid speed corner. Vettel would have been able to slow down, albeit a bit more to the right than where he was, but would also have ended up with a very low exit speed out of the first apex.

[Jolle]

Now Vettel is complaining that other drivers normally give him room.... come on... making half an overtake in a corner where you can't overtake like that on a driver that doesn't jump out of the way. Time for Vettel to come off that mountain and have a hard look in the mirror. If he wants to be WC again, he needs to stop crashing every time he's under pressure. Next year he's going to have that pressure from within the team. I think Ferrari might have a big problem the coming two years.

[timbo]

- Max and Seb were both on the SS tire (assumption being similar cornering speeds).
- Max was taking the ideal line around spoon, hence the quickest way around the corner, going from the outside of the track to the apex and out again.
- Seb was driving much faster, thus closing the gap. Only due to this speed differential was he able "stick his nose" in.
- At the point Max was turning into the corner and to the apex, Vettel was able to reduce his speed to that of Max, but at a much shallower angle into Spoon.
- At the angle Seb was taking into the corner, the speed he was doing, I find it highly unlikely he could have made the corner without making contact even if Max had left more room. Even if Max hadn't been there, his line into Spoon would have been extremely compromised to the point I wonder if he had even made the corner.

Your description applies to many instances of overtakes on the inside line. Not always do they end with a crash. Had Max yield and Vettel not made the corner, Max would legitimately taken the position back. The other possibility is a switchback, although, admittedly, it would be hard in a corner like the Spoon.

[Phil]

I think you are wrong in your assessment that Vettel would not have made the corner in a reasonable way.

Fair enough. I think the main point however is even if Max had left more room, there would be contact by the sheer speed and angle Vettel was taking into the corner. So, even assuming Max had been all the way to the right of the corner, Vettel still would have understeered into him, thus the move was never going to stick without a collision.

[turbof1]

I think you are wrong in your assessment that Vettel would not have made the corner in a reasonable way.

Fair enough. I think the main point however is even if Max had left more room, there would be contact by the sheer speed and angle Vettel was taking into the corner. So, even assuming Max had been all the way to the right of the corner, Vettel still would have understeered into him, thus the move was never going to stick without a collision.

It depends on what you define as room. Again I personally argue Verstappen left one car width of room, pushing the interpretational room for the definition of a car width's room, and absolutely nothing more. I think if Verstappen left perhaps even a quarter of a car width more room, a collision would have been avoided. Vettel really did not have that much speed and Verstappen would run towards the outside of the corner after the apex to maximize acceleration. The issue revolves around the apex really. I personally don't think the move would have sticked because how badly Vettel was compromised on exit speed, but I do think avoiding the collision was possible.

I'm not blaming Verstappen (or Vettel) predominantly. One made an opportunistic but reasonable move, the other made a very harsh but still reasonable squeeze. Sometimes that just does not work out.

[Jolle]

I think you are wrong in your assessment that Vettel would not have made the corner in a reasonable way.

Fair enough. I think the main point however is even if Max had left more room, there would be contact by the sheer speed and angle Vettel was taking into the corner. So, even assuming Max had been all the way to the right of the corner, Vettel still would have understeered into him, thus the move was never going to stick without a collision.

It depends on what you define as room. Again I personally argue Verstappen left one car width of room, pushing the interpretational room for the definition of a car width's room, and absolutely nothing more. I think if Verstappen left perhaps even a quarter of a car width more room, a collision would have been avoided. Vettel really did not have that much speed and Verstappen would run towards the outside of the corner after the apex to maximize acceleration. The issue revolves around the apex really. I personally don't think the move would have sticked because how badly Vettel was compromised on exit speed, but I do think avoiding the collision was possible.

I'm not blaming Verstappen (or Vettel) predominantly. One made an opportunistic but reasonable move, the other made a very harsh but still reasonable squeeze. Sometimes that just does not work out.

Overtaking in a high speed corner needs perfect execution and big balls and before you execute the move not rely on getting space. Or you need to be really next to the car before the corner, or you need to make your own space in the corner, taking a line that is away from the racing line. Vettel did neither.

[Phil]

It depends on what you define as room. Again I personally argue he left one car width of room, pushing the interpretational room for the definition of a car width's room, and absolutely nothing more. I think if Verstappen left perhaps even a quarter of a car width more room, a collision would have been avoided. Vettel really did not have that much speed and Verstappen would run towards the outside of the corner after the apex to maximize acceleration. The issue revolves around the apex really. I personally don't think the move would have sticked because how badly Vettel was compromised on exit speed, but I do think avoiding the collision was possible.

The problem is, you can't force the car on the outside if you aren't ahead of him. Vettel wasn't. I'd argue at the point of collision, his front wing barely would have been in Verstappen's peripheral vision. Certainly not when he was turning into the corner moments before.

The move would have been OK if Vettel had gotten ahead of Max before the turn-in point.

Look at this:


I drew the blue line first (Verstappen), then copied it and made it red and placed it side by side to demonstrate where the same turn in would have ended from the inside (assuming both having identical cornering speed).

Again; Verstappen was on the line that allows the highest speed of tackling the entry into Spoon. Sebastian wasn't. At the point of the collision, he was at the same speed as Max, thus with the same amount of "turn in", his momentum would have carried him to the outside of the corner. I concede he would have probably made the corner (with enough braking) but would have been extremely compromised, but given there was another car there who was at every point ahead, I am fairly confident a collision was unavoidable. The sheer fact that he would have to slow down more to make the corner, means he would have needed to be ahead of Max to pull off the move, not ever so slightly behind.

[Vasconia]

Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more. So Verstappen is morally fine to take that line, but he wasn't smart about it either. At that point the car of Vettel is more of a projectile heading for your car, and such a thing can easily cost your own car and race. Verstappen should have known this because his PU was clipping, so he should have known he was down on power and checked his mirrors to see the speed difference, and perhaps having taking a more defensive line approaching the corner, discouraging Vettel to plunch it down the inside. Or, take a wider line. With Vettel having to slown that much in a basically mid speed corner, and a straight following, I think Verstappen would have kept the place pure because of the acceleration.

The problem is that Verstappen usually fails to keep in mind that the other driver needs some space. Its the classic situation that if you realice that you have lost the position there is no contact, if you don´t accept it there is a clash. Other drivers tend to learn the situation better even if they are hard to pass, but Verstappen does even make a try. Just look to the incident with Kimi, he doesn´t care if the other driver is next to thim when he is back in track.

[SiLo]

The issue is the closing speed really. Anyone can look at a still image and say "he's alongside!" but when he wasn't alonside at all about 0.5 seconds prior, it's a bit unfair to suggest Max should be leaving room.

These guys aren't perfect and we can't expect them to know what the other guy is going to do all the time.

[turbof1]

The problem is, you can't force the car on the outside if you aren't ahead of him. Vettel wasn't. I'd argue at the point of collision, his front wing barely would have been in Verstappen's peripheral vision. Certainly not when he was turning into the corner moments before.

The move would have been OK if Vettel had gotten ahead of Max before the turn-in point.

Look at this:
https://temp.conceptics.com/suzuka_seb_max.jpg

Again; Verstappen was on the line that allows the highest speed of tackling the entry into Spoon. Sebastian wasn't. At the point of the collision, he was at the same speed as Max, thus with the same amount of "turn in", his momentum would have carried him to the outside of the corner. I concede he would have probably made the corner but would have been extremely compromised, but given there was another car there who was at every point ahead, I am fairly confident a collision was unavoidable.

You can't a force a car on the outside, but you also cannot overly squeeze a car on the inside. The one in front dictates the line, but has to leave some space. Being in front does not get yourself rid of responsibility.

And I don't believe for a second Verstappen did not know where Vettel was. Infact Verstappen was convinced he left enough space for Vettel, implying he knew Vettel was on the inside. Verstappen had clipping issues and was done on power. Surely the scenario of Vettel closing in would have played up in his mind before the corner.

Also, what you drew is what would happen if Vettel released the brakes. 'Take a look at this':



This would have happened with a tiny bit more of space. Because Vettel ultimately hit Verstappen, his wheels straightened and he was shot straight. At that point of course it was a lost cause, but a tiny bit more room would have resulted in more time to slow down the car, at the point where Verstappen would already have released his brakes, and would be out accelerating Vettel anyhow.

Again, I'm not blaming Verstappen. I think he left just enough space as he was required to. I don't think it's clever that he squeezed so much however. It could have costed him his race as well. If he acted a bit more clever he would have kept the position and avoided unnecessary risk. For Vettel, it was a necessary risk because of his position to Hamilton. I'm not appropiating blame, just reasoning that Verstappen had more options without taking away his right to claim the corner.

For me margins are way too minimal to go blaming one over the other. If Verstappen left Vettel that tiny bit more room and Vettel still hit, then of course Vettel is fully to blame and we would not be having this conversation. If Verstappen pushed Vettel onto the grass I conversily would be argueing Verstappen was at fault. I see Vettel on the inside having reduced speed sufficiently to take the corner in a reasonable fashion, I see Verstappen giving the car's width, but both pushed what they did so much to the limit collision was unavoidable. I am speaking more about what Verstappen could have done because Verstappen controlled the space basically. Do please don't see that as me blaming Verstappen.