Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

[WhiteBlue]

They are becomming the standard now in F1 and the gravel traps are being retired. In Spa we have seen some creative use of the run offs last year around La Source and more of it this year at Pouhon and Bus Stop. In my view there should be disadvantages for drivers who take the run offs. There should be energy absorbing barriers that will damage the wings to slow cars down unless drivers go around them and loose time. if this isn't done the run offs will become more and more like extended race tracks and we will have endless disputes about advantages gained by using the off track asphalt.

[modbaraban]

I agree. In some places though gravel traps should work well too (La Source, Pouchon). The problem is that the whole idea behind the massive introduction of ashalt run offs was not only better safety but also lesser attrition rate in races.

[Ogami musashi]

I all for the run off areas because they allow more aggressive driving and let some space for battles.

Whatever the quality of the driver is, when your car is 1,8m wide, you need space to go by.

Especially when the racing lines are restricted to one little area.

Seeing a car having his race ruined is not fun imho.
That said, having slowing down materials could be a good compromise.

[RacingManiac]

Definitely a good point about the runoff business, Spa race highlighted this, in corners where people used to be conservative and actually drive with their head now they just go in without thinking knowing that, "if I mess this up, I'll just drive around the paved run-off and get back on with nothing much lost". takes some of the challenge and spectacle away from the sports....

[axle]

I all for the run off areas because they allow more aggressive driving and let some space for battles.

Whatever the quality of the driver is, when your car is 1,8m wide, you need space to go by.

Especially when the racing lines are restricted to one little area.

Seeing a car having his race ruined is not fun imho.
That said, having slowing down materials could be a good compromise.

Totally agree with these points...but maybe certain run off's are now too big

[WhiteBlue]

A good example for what I mean is seen in Le Mans. You see drivers miss the chicanes on the strait but they have to negotiate the barriers instead and end up taking a time disadvantage by negotiating the barriers. Stiff foam barriers fixed with shear off bolts will do it. They will not cause massive deceleration whenj hit by a car out of control but force the escape route to be longer and slower for drivers that still have control.

[Ogami musashi]

I see what you mean, that's a good thing but i think it just works for large chicane; The Hunaudieres ones are quite huge.
The dunlop chicane is not workable. I've seen countless miss this week end, and no car would have had the chance to negociate the barriers. The ones that cut the chicane had to slow down a lot to recover, and there's bit a lot of spin and even flips because the surface is a low grip one so the cars used to lose their grip easily.

i do think a slow down material like at HTTT Paul Ricard would be okay.

[Belatti]

I agree with you Ogami.
For the small chicanes I would adopt the 1996 Monza GP solution as I wrote in the 2008 Belgian GP thread.

[WhiteBlue]

Yes, the TecPro barrier seems a good start but it would not be ideal. The elements are usually connected by belts which isn't the objective here. Also the TecPro contains a steel sheet internally which would not be required for the run off barriers. Finally the barriers are not fixed with specified shear off forces to the ground. But with all such mods they could be used. Actually I think the barriers need not be as high as the TecPro is now. 30 cm would be enough for the purpose of inhibiting the chicane cutting.

[Ciro Pabón]

I don't see why asphalt runoffs are a matter of opinion. They are necessary.

The fact is that leca (gravel) traps are dangerous.

"Gravel traps on road racing courses should be paved over so drivers can steer, brake and recover" -- John Fitch --

Now, if you know a little about barriers, you know who Mr. Fitch is and then you agree with him. If you don't know who he is, perhaps you can find very quickly.

Jhon Fitch in the 60's before receiving the Kenneth Stonex Award from the Transportation Research Board, National Academy of Sciences, for his lifelong contributions in the field of roadside safety


Now, from a really old TRB magazine, I find this (which I've already posted three years ago, pardon me for being so insistent):

"The entire series of tests on gravel traps indicate a deceleration of only 0.5 G, or the rate of moderate braking for a passenger car.

The full scale study determined that even this modest rate does not begin until the car has slowed to 50 mph. This compares to a 3 to 4 G braking capability for Formula One cars on a paved surface. Then there are the lesser problems of cars being eliminated from races due to damage caused by the gravel, or by simply getting stuck."

Transportation Research Record 1233, 1989, Design and Testing of Roadside Safety Devices

1989. It's not exactly yesterday's news.

Why would you need road barriers to slow down drivers? Perhaps if they were blind you'll need them, so they can hear the sound of the crash. For most of us, a line is enough.

On the other hand, if the drivers are deaf (like in the case of Hamilton), foam barriers are useless because they will not hear the sound of the crash.

Finally, if you wish to decelerate mildly (and wildly) a car, as WB proposes, use a gravel trap. That, or invent a new barrier by yourself, it's probably easy to do, why should we waste time with expensive tests and fancy university professors?

[WhiteBlue]

you are funny Ciro, but you completely missed the point. I have never disputed that asphalt run off are better than gravel traps safety wise. But the gravel traps actually trapped the cars and when drivers managed to escape them they lost a lot of time. no driver deliberately went into a gravel trap in a way as we watched Kimi deliberately drove onto the run off at Pouhon.

We also found that run offs as seen at La Source, Pouhon and Bus Stop encourage drivers to drive each other off the track because they can be used as an extension to the race track. Just watch what Alonso did to Hamilton on the first lap in 2007. He would have never done that if there had been a wall or a gravel trap. when you look at it later in the clip with Brundles commentary you see that even Alonso himself was 100% off the track there. If ever I have seen a classical driving off the track it was there at Spa 2007. Because people like tough racing nobody took action but in my book this was plain illegal. driving competitors off track is prohibited by the sporting code and is a punishable incident.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUe-HHDX ... re=related[/youtube]

That was the first race with the new La Source configuration and immediately we had mayhem there. Same with Pouhon this year and Kimi using the high friction run off to gain advantage on Hamilton.

If an undangerous amount of damage would be inflicted to the car when driving on the run offs or the drivers would be forced to weave around soft barriers the retension and obstacle function of a gravel trap would be regained. and of course the rules for not driving other competitors off the track must be enforced.

In my view that would be a positive modification to asphalt run offs.

[Stef]

Another way is to sanction drivers automatically

4 wheels out of the track, you get a drive through, no discussion.
You do that again, black flag, that's it.

[WhiteBlue]

Another way is to sanction drivers automatically

4 wheels out of the track, you get a drive through, no discussion.
You do that again, black flag, that's it.

that would not be very sensible. there are obviously events that force drivers to go off track. mainly if they are not given any room. A driver who is victim of such hard ball play and gets penalised for beeing victim will feel a wee bit odd.

[rjsa]

Stick with grass all the way to the end, closing that return path. Drivers will have to be a bit cautiois in the way back instead of flooring it while in the run off.

[modbaraban]

Stick with grass all the way to the end, closing that return path. Drivers will have to be a bit cautiois in the way back instead of flooring it while in the run off.

Grass is a bad option because cars slide a lot and in case of accident they hit the barriers at higher instead of slowing down on ther gravel or asphalt. Gravel though is prone of sending the car airborne sometimes, that's basically why they use asphalt run offs more and more.


How about water canals around the track? Lots of water would slow down the car perfectly. The only remaining problem would be drowning

Or how about fields of massively high weeds?