Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

[rjsa]

Stick with grass all the way to the end, closing that return path. Drivers will have to be a bit cautiois in the way back instead of flooring it while in the run off.

Grass is a bad option because cars slide a lot and in case of accident they hit the barriers at higher instead of slowing down on ther gravel or asphalt. Gravel though is prone of sending the car airborne sometimes, that's basically why they use asphalt run offs more and more.


How about water canals around the track? Lots of water would slow down the car perfectly. The only remaining problem would be drowning

Or how about fields of massively high weeds?

I think I expressed myself badly. These tarmac runoffs have a wide paved return path to the track, so when the drivers get there they floor it on the way back to the track.

If those (return paths) where grass, the driver would have to be carefull on the way back to the track.

[DaveKillens]

Suggestion.. why not use asphalt, but include a paint job. Let's say, a low friction paint, covering 10% of the total asphalt area, in a zig-zag pattern. The safety would be retained, but with the slight hazard of the paint strips, any driver attempting to drive through this section flat-out would ptobably encounter some slipping, maybe even a spin. Just introduce enough risk to make the drivers cautious.

[modbaraban]

I think I expressed myself badly. These tarmac runoffs have a wide paved return path to the track, so when the drivers get there they floor it on the way back to the track.

If those (return paths) where grass, the driver would have to be carefull on the way back to the track.

I don't quite understand how a run off area is different to the 'return path'. I mean when you're out in one corner you'll have to return to the track crossing the run off area of this given turn or the next one. And run off areas shouln't be slippery.

Let's take the recent example of Hamilton crossing the run off.

The place where McLaren is located on the picture is used to slow down the car that went out of control while entering the corner. The place where Lewis is heading is supposed to slow down that Ferrari in case it spins out on the exit. I can't see how you can justify making some parts of run offs more dangerous than other parts. Remember Kubica's crash in Canada? That was a very unusual trajectory of movement which proves that anything can happen and the tracks should be prepared for that. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve wasn't. There was a bump on the grass that sent the car airborne and a concrete wall to be hit at almost 90'

I'm more for abrasive gravel-like materials that would slow the car down dramatically, the only problem is that cars tend to bounce in the gravel

[rjsa]

Ok, got it.

I was talking about the video above. Those outside runoffs that are used as track some time and no one gets the hook. For those I'd extend the grass to the end.

Chicanes should just point somewhere else, out of the track. Long way back.

You have two situations when a guy misses a chicane:

1- Mech failure, no way to tell how fast the car will be. Safety needs a straight byway for the car to loose speed. No need to get back in track.

2- Error on the chicane entrance, but most of the speed is gone anyway, detour the guy from the racing path and force him to lose time. Cones would do it, you hit a cone, you get drive through.

EDIT: Just watched the spagate again. Had the barriers started some 20m earlier on the inside kerb LH would have braked propperly and taken the chicane.

[modbaraban]

An armco barrier going right through the middle of that martini logo would be good, I agree.

[WhiteBlue]

I remember the the plastic bollards they used to put on some of the chicanes. Those pose no dangers to the drivers but had some risk to damage the front wings. The plastic/foam barriers that I propose would have a simillar effect. Drivers could not use run off safety zones as an extension of the track and go as fast on the run off as on the track. As I have said before also the attitude must change. Such driving as by Alonso in Spa last year must be penalized. Improved safety should not encourage drivers to force others off the track.

[Tom Castellani]

The key here is about finding the right balance between a safe solution and a fair one. Honestly I think that's where the Valencia street circuit really hit the nail on the head.

The small rumble strip chicanes on the inside run offs were perfect. They weren't like barriers so relatively safe but they were just tall enough to give a single seater a nasty bump and almost certainly some damage. Although they didn't get much action in the F1 race I did see some GP2 cars cutting the corners, having enough asphalt to slow down but then having to weave around this low speed chicane. That would have definitely sorted things out at Spa although in my mind there was nothing to sort out.

Another instance of asphalt run offs being used was Hockenheim. People said that Hamilton pushed Massa and Piquet off the track. In fact what he did was a regular block pass which would have made the others back off should there have been grass. Because of the asphalt it actually gave Massa in particular more of an advantage, in that he could maintain momentum and gain traction off the track and not fall behind as much. He was accelerating out on a part of the track that allowed him to stay with Hamilton and he chose to use that run off, he wasn't forced onto it.

EDIT: Just watched the spagate again. Had the barriers started some 20m earlier on the inside kerb LH would have braked propperly and taken the chicane.

It's not just the spelling here that makes my skin itch. To imply that outbraking someone in order to make a passing manoeuvre is not 'proper' isn't something I expect to hear from a motor racing fan. Perhaps F1 should be full of limp-dicks who are too afraid to even try and overtake in case of hurting someone's feelings. Would that be more proper? I might be picking on the wording a little but I think it's mentality like that which is killing racing today.

[rjsa]

The key here is about finding the right balance between a safe solution and a fair one. Honestly I think that's where the Valencia street circuit really hit the nail on the head.

The small rumble strip chicanes on the inside run offs were perfect. They weren't like barriers so relatively safe but they were just tall enough to give a single seater a nasty bump and almost certainly some damage. Although they didn't get much action in the F1 race I did see some GP2 cars cutting the corners, having enough asphalt to slow down but then having to weave around this low speed chicane. That would have definitely sorted things out at Spa although in my mind there was nothing to sort out.

Another instance of asphalt run offs being used was Hockenheim. People said that Hamilton pushed Massa and Piquet off the track. In fact what he did was a regular block pass which would have made the others back off should there have been grass. Because of the asphalt it actually gave Massa in particular more of an advantage, in that he could maintain momentum and gain traction off the track and not fall behind as much. He was accelerating out on a part of the track that allowed him to stay with Hamilton and he chose to use that run off, he wasn't forced onto it.

EDIT: Just watched the spagate again. Had the barriers started some 20m earlier on the inside kerb LH would have braked propperly and taken the chicane.

It's not just the spelling here that makes my skin itch. To imply that outbraking someone in order to make a passing manoeuvre is not 'proper' isn't something I expect to hear from a motor racing fan. Perhaps F1 should be full of limp-dicks who are too afraid to even try and overtake in case of hurting someone's feelings. Would that be more proper? I might be picking on the wording a little but I think it's mentality like that which is killing racing today.

Thanks for being such a nice pal with the non native english speakers

What I meant its, if he hadnt such a nice ways into the next streight, he wuhold kepp braiking an fond an spot after KR.

[Tom Castellani]

Right, well take it as a compliment. From the rest of your previous post I made the assumption that you were a native English speaker. That actually says something about the levels of literacy in this country, I know non-English people that can speak/write better English than people I know in the UK. That's on top of their native language as well.

Sorry for the off topic rambling...

[rjsa]

Classy answer. Point for Tom. =D> (sincerely, no irony at all)

[WhiteBlue]

... The small rumble strip chicanes on the inside run offs were perfect. They weren't like barriers so relatively safe but they were just tall enough to give a single seater a nasty bump and almost certainly some damage. Although they didn't get much action in the F1 race I did see some GP2 cars cutting the corners, having enough asphalt to slow down but then having to weave around this low speed chicane....

you are getting to the point of the issue there. I also thought about rumble strip curbs to keep drivers from using run offs in an improper way. the disadvantage of such solutions is the loss of breaking that occurs when a car gets out of control and desperately needs all deceleration available. Bumps simply defeat that objective. low plastic/foam barriers would provide maximum braking and inhibit the illegal use of run offs. I guess it really is an issue of geometry. in some areas curbs/rumble strips are no concern but in the most probably trajectory of a run away car they would be detrimental.

[pgj]

Run off areas should be designated penalty areas. If a driver uses a run off area to continue racing he should be issued a penalty by the local stewards. This could be anything from a black flag to a drive through penalty. Drivers would be made aware of the areas that carried a penalty and what degree of penalty it carried at their pre race meeting.

[WhiteBlue]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

[rjsa]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

Yes. Like throwing someone on rails in Monaco. The punish the misbehaving driver afterwards.

Those paved runoff areas are designed like that just because they are more efficient on reducing speed, not to forgive who ever jumps on them.

[modbaraban]

Just popped in to illustrate exactly how spectacular those form plastic blocks can be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZKTSCxGG1g