Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

[WhiteBlue]

Nice try at making fun mod. =D>

actually I was thinking of those breaking board styrofoam blocks initially and how they can be crashed without consequences. then I thought about making them more substantial and mentally added a rotatioanlly molded polypropylene skin and shear off bolts. finally I thought they should be lower like 20 or 30 cm.

you end up with an obstacle that is still fairly insubstantial and will not hurt the driver. it will do some damage to the wings though and contribute to slowing down a run away car. they would be substantial enough to let drivers drive round them when they have control of their car left and would cause them loss of time which is exactly what you want.

[axle]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

Yes. Like throwing someone on rails in Monaco. The punish the misbehaving driver afterwards.

Those paved runoff areas are designed like that just because they are more efficient on reducing speed, not to forgive who ever jumps on them.

Actually they are entirely there to forgive mistakes...as cars being beached pathetically isn't very exciting or interesting to the viewers. The more cars that finish the race the better IMO. The more drivers can attack without fear the better. All that is needed is clarity and consistency about the use of run off area's, whether you are defending, attacking or simply making a mistake.

Good rules are self enforcing because people understand them and agree with them. Ultimately the stewards should have little or nothing to do, not dishing out penalties left right and centre, as that's not what racing is about.

[bazanaius]

Not sure how good this would be for the racing, but maybe saying that you must return to the track at the point you left it?

This would maintain the asphalt as a safe method of slowing cars down that are out of control, however in a situation where a driver leaves the track for whatever reason, but under control, he should return to the track at the point he left it. It would mean chicane cutting would be obvious, and would seriously deterr (sp?) people from using the asphalt as an addition to the track.

Whilst I don't want to discourage the great and adventurous racing we see at somewhere like spa, I think it is important that drivers making mistakes which would have been punished had there been a wall there get a safe alternative.

[WhiteBlue]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

Yes. Like throwing someone on rails in Monaco. The punish the misbehaving driver afterwards.

Those paved runoff areas are designed like that just because they are more efficient on reducing speed, not to forgive who ever jumps on them.

Actually they are entirely there to forgive mistakes...as cars being beached pathetically isn't very exciting or interesting to the viewers. The more cars that finish the race the better IMO. The more drivers can attack without fear the better. All that is needed is clarity and consistency about the use of run off area's, whether you are defending, attacking or simply making a mistake.

Good rules are self enforcing because people understand them and agree with them. Ultimately the stewards should have little or nothing to do, not dishing out penalties left right and centre, as that's not what racing is about.

pretty good point about the rules, axle!!

nevertheless there should be questions about the design of run offs if they induce drivers to use them as extended race track. the rules are pretty clear that racing should occur on the track. if the safety features encourage drivers to go off track the design is questionable.

I do not agree with the objective to keep all cars in the race. sometimes it also spices up the drama and spectacle if drivers eliminate themselves as we witnessed with Kimi in Spa.

[pgj]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

No the stewards would decide whether there was good reason to use the run off area. Remember that these tarmac areas are replacing gravel traps where a driver might not get a second chance because of the unforgiving nature of the trap. For too long, we saw drivers put into gravel traps with no action being taken against the driver who did the barging. Barging is still relatively unpunished. A steward penalty would allow a judgement to be made whether the use of the run off area was deliberate or not.

[pgj]

Not sure how good this would be for the racing, but maybe saying that you must return to the track at the point you left it?

This would maintain the asphalt as a safe method of slowing cars down that are out of control, however in a situation where a driver leaves the track for whatever reason, but under control, he should return to the track at the point he left it. It would mean chicane cutting would be obvious, and would seriously deterr (sp?) people from using the asphalt as an addition to the track.

Whilst I don't want to discourage the great and adventurous racing we see at somewhere like spa, I think it is important that drivers making mistakes which would have been punished had there been a wall there get a safe alternative.

Was it Lewis who went across a wet run off area completely out of control earlier in the season?

[rjsa]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

No the stewards would decide whether there was good reason to use the run off area. Remember that these tarmac areas are replacing gravel traps where a driver might not get a second chance because of the unforgiving nature of the trap. For too long, we saw drivers put into gravel traps with no action being taken against the driver who did the barging. Barging is still relatively unpunished. A steward penalty would allow a judgement to be made whether the use of the run off area was deliberate or not.

Then we are back where we started, discussing if the penalties are fair.

IMHO there must be punishment* to the driver that uses the runoff. He is to be considered lucky for being able to get back on track.

In the KR/LH case if LH hadn't the choice of turning to the left he would have had all the condition to keep braking and find a spot after KR. Then he would lose speed and take another couple of turns to be on KR's tail again. That' what should happen when a driver tries an over optimistic move from the outside of a turn and is not able to turn in ahead his opponent. He just has to try again.

*I mean on track, I have to go slwoly here to get back on track. Not 'Car ## under investigation'

[WhiteBlue]

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

No the stewards would decide whether there was good reason to use the run off area. Remember that these tarmac areas are replacing gravel traps where a driver might not get a second chance because of the unforgiving nature of the trap. For too long, we saw drivers put into gravel traps with no action being taken against the driver who did the barging. Barging is still relatively unpunished. A steward penalty would allow a judgement to be made whether the use of the run off area was deliberate or not.

you do not convince me. if F1 would follow your proposal we had twice the amount of race manipulation potential. the stewards could penalize the victim and let the agressor go scot free. I would not like to see this happening.

[TRICKLE69]

I would not like to see anybody get hurt, but when you see drivers making tens of millions of dollars a year to drive a race car then cry like little girls when there is not enough run off area it is pathetic!!!! I think the drivers need to grow some balls, or find another profession. Back in the day the drivers had no run off area, drove cars that were 10% as safe as they are today, got paid a hell of a lot less and still pushed 100%. The drivers now are a bunch of bitches!!! I think there should be very minimal run offs and that would force drivers to try harder to stay on track and also increase the amount of men that are in the sport instead of a bunch of prissy little girls more worried about image then focusing on thier jobs!!!

[pgj]

Having watched FP1 and FP2 at Monza the idea of putting sleeping policemen (bumps) across run-off areas is a good and effective one. Suspension damage is likely if a corner is cut at speed. I am not sure about safety, but as a method of discouraging drivers to short-cut the circuit, it is as good as most ideas put forward and is better than many.

[Conceptual]

So, base the Objective Racing Result with Subjective Marshall Opinion?

Isn't that what is inherently wrong now?

WTF?

fine, but how do you address the issue of driving competitors off track onto the run off? just compare Alonso/Hamilton 2007 Spa. the video is further up in this thread. do you want to penalize the victim?

No the stewards would decide whether there was good reason to use the run off area. Remember that these tarmac areas are replacing gravel traps where a driver might not get a second chance because of the unforgiving nature of the trap. For too long, we saw drivers put into gravel traps with no action being taken against the driver who did the barging. Barging is still relatively unpunished. A steward penalty would allow a judgement to be made whether the use of the run off area was deliberate or not.

[Pandamasque]

My question is kind of related to this topic so i thought I'd do some forum archeology.

I failed to find the answer in the forum or in those few FIA PDFs I looked through. What is the FIA definition as to the track boundaries and when is the car is considered on/off course? I suppose that it's all about staying between the white lines, but I'm looking for the exact definition and the link to the document in question. I thought it's to be found in the Sporting Code, but I couldn't. Any ides? Thanx.

[hpras]

Here's an idea. Electronic abound and are available, everyone uses the same blackbox. Put a grid down out of bounds that the box can sense. Across the line, rev limited for 5 seconds... or maybe your ignition dies until you are inbounds again. GPS is good enough, and on demand processing power is good enough to delay the penalty to when it is safe. Drivers gets the warning, done. Tennis is entiely run by the computer now as to inboud are out of bound. Why not motorsport.

[kilcoo316]

Or we could just say to the drivers.

"Tough sh!t. The cars are safe enough. The gravel traps are going back in."


End of argument.


hpras idea does have merit.

Out of bounds and your engine is cut to 12k rpm or something.

[CMSMJ1]

You just cannot have random rev cuts. It is dangerous.

What you can have is a drive through. This is already in the regs for rule breaking and so let's get draconian and use the sanctions alrady there.

Blatant cutting of the track is naughty and cheating. You could have the penatly of a 5s addition to a standard pit stop. If you have completed your stops for that race then it carries on.

A 5s penaltly on a stop is harsh...