2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

[miguelalvesreis]

from his speech I got to understand that was some Kind of drivers involvement on the decision of this new attitude or "regime" as Siskue called it

yes it was 'everyone' wasn't it. Still do we believe the drivers like it the way it's being done? They might not want some of the Causing A Collision penalties i suppose. But even if they all agree i don't think they like late blocks and being put on the grass. I think the stewards are just using this 'consensus' idea to hang out in their comfort zone.

They're all strict when it's nice and clear cut and not too controversial, like Seb rejoining into Lance, but when it's more of a judgment call with someone popular they bottle it, even if it's actually a lot more dangerous. Like in the video a car gets pushed off to have two wheels on the dirt and kerb in the braking area and he describes the issue as 'bad sportsmanship'! Lol. Not, er, dangerous driving then .

And Masi fell totally into Ant's cutely presented trap admitting that they give penalties based on the outcome not on the behaviour. But obviously most of the time a late block doesn't cause a huge crash. Just sometimes. And the entire idea of discipline is to control behaviour. The outcomes can be nothing or everything.

So they probably think they're doing their best and what they're asked, but it's a fail, if what we want to see is skilful racing where being reasonable isn't a handicap.

I have to agree on a way to warn drivers, Black and white flags always existed. Weren't being used as supposed.

I agree that LEC defensivemove on the approach to 2nd chicane was really Borderline.only can expect that future situations litre that will have the same decision. Probably MAX will be the one to benefit the most with this, since he his the one whois most aggresive on attack/defense

Regarding the 1st chicane, the deciding factor is gaining advantage. HAM Was 5 or 10 metas behind.

Curva Grande again, a bit Borderline but it's not a braking zone... We have seen a lot of moves from alot of drivers without 50 pages of complaints and, it's not a safety concen. Those are professional racing drivers, the best ones in the world, Just let them race.

It was a fiercy and ralentless fight

Thank you HAM for being ralentless!
Thank you LEC for resisting and not cracking under pressure. You did better then 3 World Champions (Ros, Vet, Rai)

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

[Phlumbert]

I reckon Mercedes is overall fairly satisfied with how Spa and Monza worked out. Ferrari were the clear favourites for both yet in both races a Mercedes finished with a second of the winning Ferrari and all in all, Mercedes walked away with the most WCC points of anyone from those two races.

[El Scorchio]

I've been saying for a while that the those headrests are stupid and dangerous, because they block the driver's vision too much, this race exemplified it perfectly.
I wonder how many more years will it take the FIA to realize this obvious fact.

They should just remove them Put a up a windshield and extend it to the sides and even back. That way drivers get their peripheral vision back.
They can add some foam under the eye-line if the really feel the need for it. Otherwise they should just improve the HANS for side impacts.

you're saying really rediculous things for a while then.
I wonder how many years it will take for you to actually reasonably think about it.
Scratch that, if you come up with 'foam' solutions, then, well. geesh.

Vettel made another braindead move. There were a dozen ways he could have went back to the track.
one to start with would be not keeping the wheels pointed the same way as his nose, sideways on the track.
It 'only' took a life last race to see why you don't do that . Second, it would have taken NOT slamming your
foot pedal to the metal on the grass and having to take up all the tarmac to then get in direction whilst making
a kamikaza move.

ALL IT TOOK would have been angling his front tires to the right, then making some wheelspin and getting his car angled better towards the track, and then repeat what he did during the race, but this time, in a much safer and less braindead manner. but honestly, i can't be surprised anymore by Seb. He's history. he keeps spinning and making braindead moves.

Anyway, as for the race itself.

Leclerc did some outstanding driving, but it must be said, there was some dirtyness today. Imagine if that would have been Max, the world wouldn't have been big enough to live on.

Two incidents come to mind. The first one, where he didn't leave him enough room. That was very unsportmanship behaviour. He would have kept that position either way, didn't need to push Hamilton off.
He got off very good with that black/white flag warning. Fia serving ferrari again, a win on home turf.
So, that does influence his race a bit, which really was not neccesary at all.

Second moment was when Hamilton got close again, and in the corner, Leclerc swerves to the left almost collecting Lewis. He kept moving and i think there's a rule against what he did there. I agree with Hamilton that it was dangerous driving.

Not saying he should have been penalized for that - it's clear Ferrari got warned due to what his engineer told him moments later - but it was tricky moves which can end in some dangerous outcomes including losing the race completely on home turf.

That said, Impressed with Ferrari and LeClerc. Fast enough to keep ahead, and calm enough to keep Hamilton behind. Bottaas was no sweat, that was a bit embarassing really.
But LeClerc not getting forced into an error, except the tiny braking error where he missed the apex, was convincing of his outstanding capabilities especially for such a fresh talent in F1.

It was ironic that Lewis was trying to push Leclerc in a mistake which didn't happen, whilst Hamilton himself got exactly in what he pushed Charles to get into, only to then imho also make the mistake of taking the longer route instead of just going like Charles on that apex, that would have seen him lose much less time, but it didn't matter at that point anymore.

I think the mistake today was Mercedes not giving Hamilton what he asked for 'mo powah baby'.
Had Lewis had a bit more power to his hands for just a couple of laps, i think he would have managed
to pass charles. Then again, let's concider that. Then he loses DRS advantage and charles in a car with vastly
higher top speed gains DRS on the Merc, and see Charles breeze past Lewis just a lap later.

Which would mean all that hard effort went to waste and hamilton's race might now be influenced worse by using more power and as such more fuel and wear. so in the end, Mercedes did the right thing, even though they didn't win.

Bottas though, what a turd. All the chance to shine and then to throw it away. He really could have grabbed that win. Typical number two lapdog driver.

Outside of those: Ricciardo and Hulk great great great drives with the Renault.

Albon FANTASTIC results, very happy with him proving clearly he's the right choice for the RB.
Outstanding and admirable for a driver who is in his FIRST year in F1 and is promoted to a topteam
with a podium capable car halfway into the season. Very impressed, i can't remember any driver really who
even managed that.
Max, hardly been shown during the race but decent drive to get from the back to where he got.
Lost good opportunity at the start though. Too bad, but hey, it's not like this circuit and the last one were
very 'RBR' likeable territories.

Hamilton did push Leclerc into ‘that’ mistake. He didn’t make the first chicane after outbraking himself, only the stewards allowed him to just cut it in order to not lose the place and get back on the track ahead of Hamilton without any punishment.

[cooken]

Yep. The same ones who handed a 5s penalty out for the exact same thing just yesterday, at the same track, at the same corner. It's mind numbing.

Also on Vettel. It was early in the race, he was near the front. You don't need to look to know there's, oh, about 15 cars coming just about line astern. It was willful negligence.

[Scorpaguy]

So the pole man has no chance of snatching the podium?

Telemetry data suggests not...Merc (and maybe RB) race pace likely to prevail. If wet...no chance.

Hah! Well, Leclerc won. Though there was no rain.

Yes...eating crow today. Thanks for catching

[Scorpaguy]

I reckon Mercedes is overall fairly satisfied with how Spa and Monza worked out. Ferrari were the clear favorites for both yet in both races a Mercedes finished with a second of the winning Ferrari and all in all, Mercedes walked away with the most WCC points of anyone from those two races.

Yep. If the SF90 is indeed a "Monza special"...the rest of the year could be bleak. Still, would have been nice to see how 2 "Monza specials" could have menaced the podium had it not been for VET's HUA driving.

[dtro]

Second half of the season looks interesting even for non-Merc fans imo. Rare moment when Merc isn't coming in as the favorite. I do think that they'll be winning/challenging for the win this weekend even if Ferrari gets pole/front row lock-out. They've managed to trip over themselves here too many times, pressure too high in front of the home crowd?

Will be interesting to see how far Max can get from the back of the grid. Will be similarly interesting to see how Albon will continue to improve at RB.

yes there is a ton of interest to be had isn't there, all over the place. Massive test for Charles' head, just for a start. it could be damp too. Classic young gun vs wise old fart battle with Lewis Seb under pressure, Valtteri trying not to look like a wingman as well, Alex as you say, Max, McLarens...

(i don't know why anybody bothered with that one silly post about tyres, again)

Chuckles held it together despite the pressure, two mistakes that I felt had a measurable impact but nonetheless! Nice to see the Merc boys look at the Ferrari lustfully Doesn't happen often. Bottas def looked less of a wingman than usual but couldn't change the narrative.

Looking forward to RB punching back at Singapore with Merc snapping at their heels. Ferrari should take Vettel out back and put him out of his misery, make him clean LeClerc's tires. Kimi would've done a better job.

Mclaren disappointing but the see-saw with Renault is fairly apparent on low df tracks, Renault and Honda see-saw at Monza that prioritizes straight-up PU grunt. Alex's race two faced almost- mildly psychotic followed by measured by underwhelming P6.

Not a bad race all things considered, not one I'll necessarily remember unless someone asks me where LeClerc won his second GP. The weekend was a --- show because of Q3 IMO. Parking lot speeds and frantic calls from the engineers telling racing drivers, racing drivers, to make it across the line before the session ends so they can start their second runs. Pure idiocy.

[selvam_e2002]

All the lucks played well for Lecrec in Monza!!! Let see how he progress remaining races in this year.

[JRindt]

I don’t know what the fuss is all about regarding the chicane cut. Hamilton did the same with Ricciardo at 2016 Monaco. Here’s an excerpt from wiki regarding the incident...

“At the chicane coming out of the tunnel, Hamilton misjudged the corner and backed Ricciardo off at the exit of the chicane, causing the latter to complain about the move on team radio. While the incident was investigated by the stewards, the decision was not to take action against Hamilton.”

As for Leclerc pushing Hamilton off track, the move was considered acceptable in Austria and Leclerc changed his style accordingly. While I’m not a big fan of such moves, I think it’s unfair to criticise Leclerc. If anything, the stewards should be criticised for letting such a situation come to pass.

Leclerc blocking Hamilton out of Curva Grande is dirty and dangerous though and he should have been shown a black and white flag for that.

[djos]

Awesome race today, Leclerc did a great job overall ... that said I think he was really skating on thin ice a couple of times but nice to see the Stewards not wrecking races with heavy-handed penalties.

Great job by the Renault team too, getting 4th and 5th for Ricciardo & Hulkenberg was very impressive. I hope Renault can get their car to suit a wider range of tracks and repeat this sort of result a few more times this year.

[djos]

Btw, the interview with Michael Masi, after the race with Antony, was great - he explained why they've shifted their stewarding policies (done with FiA, Teams & FOM) and how they are implementing the latest policies. Personally, I think it's great that there's a bit more "have at it" in F1.

[turbof1]

So guys, I got a couple of things to say. I'm not sure if I should do it as a moderator, or as a member. Let's follow FIA's example of more leniency first, go for the member option and see where that goes.

First, I personally feel the FIA is putting itself in quite a bind here (and truthfully, they might have for a long while already). I get there was a push from teams and drivers for harsher racing, and some things like switching lines at the very last second were already half/half allowed. I do think they went too far with it and are allowing certain actions to go unpunished, that should not be.

Quite a few members here take that as bias towards Ferrari. I do not think or believe that is the case (although we definitely will have to confirm that in the next races). I can understand the sentiment because a lot of cases this weekend turned out in favour of Ferrari, but there is a logical explanation behind most of them:
-Vettel getting away with having his time stand on the boards on saturday was explained that his tyre shadowed the line. We discussed this could be a possibility before the verdict was given and it was such an edge case that I can agree with the verdict, also because the motivation was solid.
-The Leclerc shenanigans were motivated by Michael Masi as being part of the overall change of approach where they are being much more lenient. He even went back to a case where Verstappen was punished last year, stating for the same infringement he would now gotten a black/white flag. I think that does show it is not bias.

Do I personally agree with this different approach? No.
-Not in the middle of a season in the first place, and second because it will lead to a very poisonous attitude on the track. We've seen 2 heavy crashes, 1 death and another life in the balance in the span of a week.
-Also, it seems F3 and F2 are still being treated much harsher. You can argue because they are the junior categories, you need to get responsibility whipped into them, but honestly youngsters seeing drivers pushing eachother off track in the series they dream to be in, is not a good example. It undermines credibility.
-There is no consistency. Cases of this year and last year are now suddenly being treated differently. It leads to confusion.

So in short, no it's not bias. It's just an overall questionable change of direction from an institute promoting safety. In my eyes. People confuse that for bias. Now every time some sort of impactful decsision is being made, words of bias are being flung like it was Bonobo feces. And that is tiresome. Not only to moderate, but more importantly for the reasonable members around who are much more able to take things to perspective. I understand a lot of emotion comes with races, especially a high profile one like Monza, but please: keep your head with it. Don't let emotion take such a control over you. Think before you post.

[DChemTech]

So guys, I got a couple of things to say. I'm not sure if I should do it as a moderator, or as a member. Let's follow FIA's example of more leniency first, go for the member option and see where that goes.

First, I personally feel the FIA is putting itself in quite a bind here (and truthfully, they might have for a long while already). I get there was a push from teams and drivers for harsher racing, and some things like switching lines at the very last second were already half/half allowed. I do think they went too far with it and are allowing certain actions to go unpunished, that should not be.

Quite a few members here take that as bias towards Ferrari. I do not think or believe that is the case (although we definitely will have to confirm that in the next races). I can understand the sentiment because a lot of cases this weekend turned out in favour of Ferrari, but there is a logical explanation behind most of them:
-Vettel getting away with having his time stand on the boards on saturday was explained that his tyre shadowed the line. We discussed this could be a possibility before the verdict was given and it was such an edge case that I can agree with the verdict, also because the motivation was solid.
-The Leclerc shenanigans were motivated by Michael Masi as being part of the overall change of approach where they are being much more lenient. He even went back to a case where Verstappen was punished last year, stating for the same infringement he would now gotten a black/white flag. I think that does show it is not bias.

Do I personally agree with this different approach? No.
-Not in the middle of a season in the first place, and second because it will lead to a very poisonous attitude on the track. We've seen 2 heavy crashes, 1 death and another life in the balance in the span of a week.
-Also, it seems F3 and F2 are still being treated much harsher. You can argue because they are the junior categories, you need to get responsibility whipped into them, but honestly youngsters seeing drivers pushing eachother off track in the series they dream to be in, is not a good example. It undermines credibility.
-There is no consistency. Cases of this year and last year are now suddenly being treated differently. It leads to confusion.

So in short, no it's not bias. It's just an overall questionable change of direction from an institute promoting safety. In my eyes. People confuse that for bias. Now every time some sort of impactful decsision is being made, words of bias are being flung like it was Bonobo feces. And that is tiresome. Not only to moderate, but more importantly for the reasonable members around who are much more able to take things to perspective. I understand a lot of emotion comes with races, especially a high profile one like Monza, but please: keep your head with it. Don't let emotion take such a control over you. Think before you post.

Agreed. It's a difficult matter, as overpolicing (which did happen to some extent in other recent seasons) can lead to a succession of boring races, but now the pendulum swung too far the other way. It's a fine line to balance, and clearly there is still some work to be done there.

[henry]

Well said @turbof1.

It’s a slippery slope and once things start sliding it’s hard to stop them. The lesser skill of pushing a driver off track will outrank the skill of setting up an overtake. Soccer has shown the way. Seizing a skilful player’s shirt or body is an accepted way of negating the skill. Except when it’s, randomly, not acceptable.

They should enforce the rules as written. If they’re badly written they should re-write them so they are not.

[Bill_Kar]

I reckon Mercedes is overall fairly satisfied with how Spa and Monza worked out. Ferrari were the clear favourites for both yet in both races a Mercedes finished with a second of the winning Ferrari and all in all, Mercedes walked away with the most WCC points of anyone from those two races.

That's not mentioned much and is the whole story. Tifosi are happy, winning in Monza is not insignificant, but for the team there are no positives to look back at. Except Leclerc of course.