2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

[Just_a_fan]

The stewards' approach seems now to be that forcing a driver off track in the braking zone is ok so long as there is no contact. Had Leclerc touched Hamilton during his crowding out squeeze, he'd have got a penalty it seems. Next time, the squeezed driver won't yield so much, there will be contact and someone in the barrier. Leclerc has Hamilton to thank this time. If Hamilton hadn't gone on the grass, Leclerc's rear tyre would have gone over Hamilton's front and launched Leclerc. Such are the margins between "hard driving" and accidents.

It should be noted that closing the door on exit is not the same - the crowded driver has options on exit. Crowding in the braking zone removes options. Big difference. I was ok with Max in Austria. Not so much with Charles in Monza.

[Bill_Kar]

The stewards' approach seems now to be that forcing a driver off track in the braking zone is ok so long as there is no contact. Had Leclerc touched Hamilton during his crowding out squeeze, he'd have got a penalty it seems. Next time, the squeezed driver won't yield so much, there will be contact and someone in the barrier. Leclerc has Hamilton to thank this time. If Hamilton hadn't gone on the grass, Leclerc's rear tyre would have gone over Hamilton's front and launched Leclerc. Such are the margins between "hard driving" and accidents.

It should be noted that closing the door on exit is not the same - the crowded driver has options on exit. Crowding in the braking zone removes options. Big difference. I was ok with Max in Austria. Not so much with Charles in Monza.

He could do it on Hamilton because Hamilton is not stupid. He would never risk anything for a win when he's that far ahead in the championship. Had it been Max, Seb, Albon, hell even Bottas, that would be 100% a collision, Leclerc damage/DNF.

As Max said, Charles was really sour about Austria. But there will come the time when he'll do something stupid and he' ll come to his senses. There's great talent there but the stewards have messed this up badly.

[Sierra117]

This approach of FIA about penalty when touching is akin to a kid pushing another kid to the edge of the cliff (let's say by way of just overbearing size or aggressive distance control) and there being just a "warning" like "hey kid, don't do that again!". No penalty for the kid because there was no physical touching or the kid didn't fall to his death.

Good post @turbof1.

[djos]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

[turbof1]

This approach of FIA about penalty when touching is akin to a kid pushing another kid to the edge of the cliff (let's say by way of just overbearing size or aggressive distance control) and there being just a "warning" like "hey kid, don't do that again!". No penalty for the kid because there was no physical touching or the kid didn't fall to his death.

Good post @turbof1.

Yes. I understand some leniency towards unintended incidents. But, if the intention is to scare someone off the track, I feel you have to draw a line. FIA is now basically saying "if you do something naughty, but for whatever reason there is no damage, you'll get a single get-out-of-jail-free card once". Like JAF said, if Hamilton did not move out of the way and onto the gras and out of bounds, there would certainly have been damage. What is going to happen now in all similar situations, is that driver will flip that coin, and it will basically a game of chances: will the car on the outside yield or not. Hamilton yielded very sensibly, but he already indicated that once the championship is wrapped up, he'll no longer do that. Then you have to wonder about other, more agressive drivers like Magnussen or Verstappen.

I also feel the FIA is way too focussed down on the effect instead of the intent. Vettel getting a 10second stop and go, but Stroll only a drive through because Gasly was miraculously able to avoid collission by going through the gravel, does not hold up for me. Both were equally reckless and both put an other driver into jeopardy. Just because the outcome is different because the offended driver was able to get more out of the way, should not be part of deciding on the level of penalty.

I do think the intent behind the black 'n white flag is well meant. They really want to use it as a yellow card (although a yellow card often keeps standing after the match and depending on the league you play in, collecting more will result you being suspended the next match). But, I think it will really be used as a "one time naughty for free" card. I hope I am proven wrong. We'll see, I'm am going to reserve final judgement until after the end of the season. I think that is only fair to do so.

[siskue2005]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

but he did do that again after the flag

[djos]

I think the Stroll penalty was more than fair as he was victim number 1 in the Vettel off track incident and his rejoin wasn't quite as stupid (but still careless) as the accident which wrecked his own race.

[turbof1]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

but he did do that again after the flag

I think you are referring to where he moved at the very last second to block Hamilton's overtake attempt?

I agree this should not be accepted. However, the thing is they allowed it already in the past with Verstappen and Magnussen for instance. The geni is out of the bottle with that, so we are looking at a move that is now allowed I guess?

[djos]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

but he did do that again after the flag

He did not push Lewis off the track after the flag was shown.

[siskue2005]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

but he did do that again after the flag

He did not push Lewis off the track after the flag was shown.

if the black and white flag is like yellow card in football, then if one football player gets yellow card for pushing other player and then even if goes on to kick another player in his chin (a completely different transgression) still he will get a yellow card or will he get a red card??
which means that a transgression should get one black and white card and any further different type of transgression should be punished

rather we saw furthur warnings after warnings.

So are we going to get 100 black and yellow flag until the said driver does the SAME transgression again!

[siskue2005]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

but he did do that again after the flag

I think you are referring to where he moved at the very last second to block Hamilton's overtake attempt?

I agree this should not be accepted. However, the thing is they allowed it already in the past with Verstappen and Magnussen for instance. The geni is out of the bottle with that, so we are looking at a move that is now allowed I guess?

Yes he moved 2 times, or has that rule also being scrapped?

and what about the cutting chicane and not going through the designated part and still keeping the lead?

[Sierra117]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

I heard all the radio calls. It does not change the fact that he, despite having moved went ahead and said "I don't move" lol.

And can we stop comparing racing to football? You are not moving at crazy speeds in football. On average, the worst injurty in a game where you are limited by your own body is broken bones. In motor racing you are limited by the potential of the machine, so the worst result is certain death. It makes sense to have a yellow card in football because you're dealing with people using their bodies - you have to really go out of your way to do nasty things. But in motor racing you need a range to play in, exceeding that is asking for trouble so mistakes happen more often than any intentional dirty moves and those mistakes often have exponentially worse outcomes due to the speed = distance x time. We saw how Anthoine lost his life from a pure mistake by someone else and then an unavoidable collision. Something like that will almost never happen in football (the chances are much lower).

This approach of FIA about penalty when touching is akin to a kid pushing another kid to the edge of the cliff (let's say by way of just overbearing size or aggressive distance control) and there being just a "warning" like "hey kid, don't do that again!". No penalty for the kid because there was no physical touching or the kid didn't fall to his death.

Good post @turbof1.

Yes. I understand some leniency towards unintended incidents. But, if the intention is to scare someone off the track, I feel you have to draw a line. FIA is now basically saying "if you do something naughty, but for whatever reason there is no damage, you'll get a single get-out-of-jail-free card once". Like JAF said, if Hamilton did not move out of the way and onto the gras and out of bounds, there would certainly have been damage. What is going to happen now in all similar situations, is that driver will flip that coin, and it will basically a game of chances: will the car on the outside yield or not. Hamilton yielded very sensibly, but he already indicated that once the championship is wrapped up, he'll no longer do that. Then you have to wonder about other, more agressive drivers like Magnussen or Verstappen.

I also feel the FIA is way too focussed down on the effect instead of the intent. Vettel getting a 10second stop and go, but Stroll only a drive through because Gasly was miraculously able to avoid collission by going through the gravel, does not hold up for me. Both were equally reckless and both put an other driver into jeopardy. Just because the outcome is different because the offended driver was able to get more out of the way, should not be part of deciding on the level of penalty.

I do think the intent behind the black 'n white flag is well meant. They really want to use it as a yellow card (although a yellow card often keeps standing after the match and depending on the league you play in, collecting more will result you being suspended the next match). But, I think it will really be used as a "one time naughty for free" card. I hope I am proven wrong. We'll see, I'm am going to reserve final judgement until after the end of the season. I think that is only fair to do so.

I agree with you but determining intentions is difficult. I propose that instead of seeing the immediate effect of the rule (e.g. black and white flag discourages driver from repeating move x), the FIA should look at the *influence* on driver behaviour of a rule. In other words, as we've determined, drivers will now stay closer on purpose so that the offending driver makes contact and gets a 5-second penalty instead of being squeezed and only resulting in a black and white flag. Similar to how in psychology we see how behaviour is affected by a certain activity instead of its immediate effect because people will adapt to it and try to take advantage of it. It's not like code where you script something to happen and it always happens in the same way. Hope that made sense!

[santos]

"It would be great for the sport and for the fans if we could have some battles" - Charles give him a good fight, the guy starts crying out loud because he didn't let him win. I know they are all the same, but the PR from Mercedes and Lewis is all a big pille of BS.

[turbof1]

but he did do that again after the flag

I think you are referring to where he moved at the very last second to block Hamilton's overtake attempt?

I agree this should not be accepted. However, the thing is they allowed it already in the past with Verstappen and Magnussen for instance. The geni is out of the bottle with that, so we are looking at a move that is now allowed I guess?

Yes he moved 2 times, or has that rule also being scrapped?

and what about the cutting chicane and not going through the designated part and still keeping the lead?

The cutting of the chicane was deemed not to have given him an advantage, and I think that one was actually fair. It brought Lewis from not being able to attack Leclerc to a position where he was quite a bit closer.

[djos]

but he did do that again after the flag

I think you are referring to where he moved at the very last second to block Hamilton's overtake attempt?

I agree this should not be accepted. However, the thing is they allowed it already in the past with Verstappen and Magnussen for instance. The geni is out of the bottle with that, so we are looking at a move that is now allowed I guess?

Yes he moved 2 times, or has that rule also being scrapped?

and what about the cutting chicane and not going through the designated part and still keeping the lead?

I can't believe I'm defending a Ferrari driver here, however he didn't move twice iirc, he moved to defend then moved back to the racing line which is legal.