2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

[dans79]

Lewis had no business trying to put his car there in the first place.

The primary reason you put your car where Lewis had it, is to force the leading driver to take a tighter (compromised) line through the turn, thus give yourself an advantage and a chance to overtake on exit.

He had more than enough of an overlap, and was thus entitled to have his car there.

[dtro]

Chuckles held it together despite the pressure, two mistakes that I felt had a measurable impact but nonetheless! Nice to see the Merc boys look at the Ferrari lustfully Doesn't happen often. Bottas def looked less of a wingman than usual but couldn't change the narrative.

Looking forward to RB punching back at Singapore with Merc snapping at their heels. Ferrari should take Vettel out back and put him out of his misery, make him clean LeClerc's tires. Kimi would've done a better job.

Mclaren disappointing but the see-saw with Renault is fairly apparent on low df tracks, Renault and Honda see-saw at Monza that prioritizes straight-up PU grunt. Alex's race two faced almost- mildly psychotic followed by measured by underwhelming P6.

Not a bad race all things considered, not one I'll necessarily remember unless someone asks me where LeClerc won his second GP. The weekend was a --- show because of Q3 IMO. Parking lot speeds and frantic calls from the engineers telling racing drivers, racing drivers, to make it across the line before the session ends so they can start their second runs. Pure idiocy.

yes it was a good weekend I think too. Kind of 'important' more than an amazing race, but that huge shift at Ferrari from Seb to Charles, a win for Mattia at home, the stewarding story, and Mercedes getting through their worst race with a 2,3, typical! Renault as you say, great for them.

So true! I'll be honest my disappointment in Ferrari's season led to me sort of writing off the success at the last two races. As happy as Ferrari must be I assume they're still disappointed that they should have won at few races in the first half of the season and that it's taken so long to break the duck.

[siskue2005]

Guys, just asking like, mot taking sides, but how long does the 'warning' last? does it carry over races?

Black and white flags are for that race only!

and it seems like it is only for that one type of transgression only! which means people can do more transgression and get a flag as along as they dont repeat the same type of transgression again

[nevill3]

A simple rule change to also award penalty points on their licence if they get a black and white flag would limit any flagrant gaming of this new more lenient approach. drivers would think twice about consistently disregarding the rules.

[foxmulder_ms]

Drivers are getting the wrong lessons. We will have more crushes.

[Zarathustra]

First I would like to emphasize I am not saying the following to ‘bash’ Hamilton...

But wasn’t it strange how he missed the first chicane and lost the 2nd place..?

Bottas was ‘about to overtake’ Hamilton- because Hamilton’s tyres were done, and it was to me like Hamilton didn’t want to have a discussion etc.. so just gave up 2nd- knowing it doesn’t hurt him in the WDC.. and in the meantime not having to explain why Bottas ‘overtook’ him.. bla bla bla..

Just my thoughts about that small ‘incident’..

[drunkf1fan]

Lewis had no business trying to put his car there in the first place. But that obviously is just my opinion. Don't have much use for Palmer.

He has no business trying to get alongside and being alongside down a straight and not being run off the road? What?

Part of racing is even if you can't make a pass, putting the other driver in a bad position for a corner. LIke someone defends the inside, you don't just go okay, I give up back off and let the other driver have the corner. You stay on the outside, force the other driver to take a tighter turn and end up wider on exit.

Albon got alongside Sainz, Sainz was in a similar position to Hamilton, Albon being so tight had to take a wide exit, was very tight for the second corner and went very wide on exit. Conversely Sainz went in from wide, took a great line through turn 2, got a far superior exit and got by him after the chicane.

He got alongside fairly, he didn't dive bomb in around the outside and just appear there. Part of driving is simply putting the guy ahead of you in a bad position to take the next turn well.

The idea that he had no business being there, that if you can't make a pass then you should just leave the guy ahead completely alone, it's crazy.

Hamilton won Monza last year by having not passed Vettel, but being in a similar position on the outside, not being forced off track and Vettel taking the corner too fast and too tight on the inside. He spun largely because he clipped the inside curb WAY too hard which bumped him wider, made the rear end light, tapped Ham with his front tires and spun out. Like if Hamilton thought whoa, better leave them too it, he'd likely not have won the race.

[Phil]

I’d also add that by putting himself along side on the outside and under the presumption of being given the room he was entitled to, would have given him the inside into the second part of the chicane as a result of having a wider line, later braking and a higher turn in speed. Pretty much how he passed Vettel last year.

To be fair, yes, i think Leclerc overstepped it a bit this race, but equally, i think he stood up well to the pressure he was under. I cant blame him for being the ‘racer’ and defending his position with the knive between his teeth. It’s not his job to make the decision the stewards should have made.

Equally, i think that even if Hamilton had found a way passed, i am not convinced he could have remained there given the mesmerizing speed on the straight that Ferrari had. Assuming he’d have gotten by, i’m fairly certain Leclerc would have gotten back right at the next chance. So 2nd was the best i think that was on the table.

I do wonder though if the strategy would have been better if they had used Bottas with an earlier stop to force Leclercs hand and then gone long with Lewis (effectively the other way around). I think they didnt do this, as it would have robbed Bottas of a chance at his own race and assuming Hamilton would have come quicker from behind, would have required team orders. So perhaps it was good as it was.

Vettel i think had a really bad race, but he was quite collected after the race. Considering this is not a car that is tailored to his strength, i think he is still close enough to Leclerc to be written off.

[dans79]

Equally, i think that even if Hamilton had found a way passed, i am not convinced he could have remained there given the mesmerizing speed on the straight that Ferrari had. Assuming he’d have gotten by, i’m fairly certain Leclerc would have gotten back right at the next chance. So 2nd was the best i think that was on the table.

Personally, I think It would have come down to how much of a gap Hamilton built immediately following the pass. If he could have built up a .3 to .4 second gap by the time they exited Ascari, I think he would keep the position and then slowly pulled away.

Lewis couldn't follow closely through Parabolica, and I think Charles would have had an even harder time as Ferrari runs even less front wing DF.

[Big Tea]

Equally, i think that even if Hamilton had found a way passed, i am not convinced he could have remained there given the mesmerizing speed on the straight that Ferrari had. Assuming he’d have gotten by, i’m fairly certain Leclerc would have gotten back right at the next chance. So 2nd was the best i think that was on the table.

Personally, I think It would have come down to how much of a gap Hamilton built immediately following the pass. If he could have built up a .3 to .4 second gap by the time they exited Ascari, I think he would keep the position and then slowly pulled away.

Lewis couldn't follow closely through Parabolica, and I think Charles would have had an even harder time as Ferrari runs even less front wing DF.

It would also have assisted his escape if Bottas had been barking at Charles heels taking his attention and making him drive defensibly.

[izzy]

So true! I'll be honest my disappointment in Ferrari's season led to me sort of writing off the success at the last two races. As happy as Ferrari must be I assume they're still disappointed that they should have won at few races in the first half of the season and that it's taken so long to break the duck.

It was a huge weekend for Ferrari because it tells them they can take on Lewis doesn't it, next year (this year was gone really as soon as the Mk2 Merc appeared in winter testing). The last two championships have been won with the driving haven't they: 80 points each year thrown away by one driver and not the other. Lewis applying the pressure and Seb feeling it. But now Charles IS the real deal, and Ferrari know how to how do the downforce, even if this year they got out-thought by Mercedes again (racing the tyre sensors in Abu Dhabi so they could test with them).

Plus the signs are Mattia is managing to change to a more Red Bull/ Mercedes type of culture, I'd say, and now generally Ferrari is probably quite a happy place atm. They'll be looking forward to next year.

[NathanOlder]

@Phil,

Lewis said on the radio in the first stint that the overcut wouldn't work as his tyres didnt have the life in them. I'm guessing his tyres were mush worse than Bottas in the first stint for obvious reasons.

[ringo]

Oh rubbish, it's no different than a yellow card in soccer!

The black flag with white meatball means "do it again and you are off" and if you paid any attention to the radio calls, you would have heard Charles engineer tell him in no uncertain terms not do it again.

The problem with this is that drivers will do it all the time if they know they can destroy the only window of oportunity of a following car to pass. Lets say this was the final lap of the race and leclerc push hamilton off, which is the cheapest non skilled way of getting himself out kf the problem. What would a black and white flag mean if it was the last lap and only chance for hamilton to overtake? Leclerc wont need to block again if he only need to get the block done once. So the flag is sill and too soft.
A yellow card results in a penalty; ie a free ki k to the other team. This black and white flag does not penalize the offender and doesnt give the follower a chance to make things right.
I think they need to review this precedent that they are setting.

[drunkf1fan]

@Phil,

Lewis said on the radio in the first stint that the overcut wouldn't work as his tyres didnt have the life in them. I'm guessing his tyres were mush worse than Bottas in the first stint for obvious reasons.

They complain about the tires all the time, but the times don't actually go off. Taking Leclerc his fastest lap in the first stint is a 84.6, his lap before pitting was an 84.9 but he's telling his team the rears have completely gone a couple of laps earlier. They fell worse but the lap times really don't go down. Bottas continued doing the same rough times, 84.6-84.9s through the rest of his stint too. That's just how these tires work. They feel bad but fuel goes down and the car stays about the same speed over the whole stint.

Bottas almost always hurts his tires more than anyone else in the top teams but here deg wasn't particularly bad. Ham's tires were 'gone' in the end in as much as he gave up and was almost certainly running lower engine modes. After his mistake he knew the chance was over so why push, even not pushing he only lost a little time.

The overcut, as in pitting within a few laps and being ahead because you're being held up enough that you'd gain time in clean air, and the going long to come out behind but have better tires and pass at the end aren't the same thing. He's right he didn't have the pace for the overcut, the overcut almost never works. Only a couple of tracks like Baku, with genuinely so little deg that Ham/Vettel pitted onto the harder tire and were slower and couldn't catch Bottas who while slower than both before, just stayed out on the softer tire and matched their times. That's the only time a real overcut works, when the new tires are just not faster at all.

[dtro]

So true! I'll be honest my disappointment in Ferrari's season led to me sort of writing off the success at the last two races. As happy as Ferrari must be I assume they're still disappointed that they should have won at few races in the first half of the season and that it's taken so long to break the duck.

It was a huge weekend for Ferrari because it tells them they can take on Lewis doesn't it, next year (this year was gone really as soon as the Mk2 Merc appeared in winter testing). The last two championships have been won with the driving haven't they: 80 points each year thrown away by one driver and not the other. Lewis applying the pressure and Seb feeling it. But now Charles IS the real deal, and Ferrari know how to how do the downforce, even if this year they got out-thought by Mercedes again (racing the tyre sensors in Abu Dhabi so they could test with them).

Plus the signs are Mattia is managing to change to a more Red Bull/ Mercedes type of culture, I'd say, and now generally Ferrari is probably quite a happy place atm. They'll be looking forward to next year.

My fingers are crossed that you are correct about all of the above! I admit to becoming a bit jaded by Vettel's driving in post V8 era, among a few other things in F1 over the last several years. Hopefully Ferrari can put solidify their hold on second place in the WCC this year, barring a complete implosion of Max and the Mercs a lot of tracks may be tough to compete at the level they've competed in Spa and Monza this year. Plus Charles can't carry Ferrari even if he looks like he can more or less handle the pressure and deliver wins, they need someone else that can deliver consistently and perhaps less dramatically like you said 80 points thrown away each year.